AZ “pioneer” season for sheep

[TrackerG]

If you're 70+ years old and needing some special set aside to finally go sheep hunting, I'd ask what you did with the preceding 50 or so years. There was plenty of opportunity in that stretch.

I get that it's only a handful of tags, but it always starts with just a little bit here for this group, a little bit there for that group, and next thing you know, we're moving on to other species.

I'm sorry, I just can't get behind giving the generation that has had the greatest amount of opportunity in many facets of life one last leg up because they didn't plan well. I'm also tired of outfitter welfare, which is probably another driver of this, because presumably these 70+ years are all going to hire a guide to find said one horned rams.

You’re tired of outfitter welfare? That 70 year old guy doesn’t have to hire an outfitter. He could have some kids or grandkids come out and spend a week glassing with him, very easily. An outfitter provides a service. NO ONE has to hire an outfitter to hunt on public land in AZ. A person CHOOSES to hire an outfitter. That’s why outfitters exist. It would be “outfitter welfare” if the regs stated “all tag recipients must hire a qualified guide or outfitter”

I guess I’m just confused as to why the **** anyone cares. There is an estimated 7 rams in the state that fall into the 1 horned ram category. And I can guarantee you any good hunter isn’t going to choose to shoot a 1 horned ram on their once in a life tag.

So why should the 1 horned ram “resource” get squandered. Why should those rams all die of predation, drought, or old age instead of utilizing the resource.

If you had to burn your ONCE IN A LIFETIME points to draw a sheep tag, would you put in for the 1 horned ram hunts before you were 70? My guess is probably not. So after 70 you can put in for them, like a last ditch effort to get a sheep tag.

Can’t we be happy the state isn’t squandering a resource? And opening doors for people?

Of course, no one can, cause it’s a me me me attitude, **** everyone else, I’m the most important.

If some old man was telling the story of his one horned ram I would be pretty damn excited for him.

 

[S.Clancy]

You’re tired of outfitter welfare? That 70 year old guy doesn’t have to hire an outfitter. He could have some kids or grandkids come out and spend a week glassing with him, very easily. An outfitter provides a service. NO ONE has to hire an outfitter to hunt on public land in AZ. A person CHOOSES to hire an outfitter. That’s why outfitters exist. It would be “outfitter welfare” if the regs stated “all tag recipients must hire a qualified guide or outfitter”

I guess I’m just confused as to why the **** anyone cares. There is an estimated 7 rams in the state that fall into the 1 horned ram category. And I can guarantee you any good hunter isn’t going to choose to shoot a 1 horned ram on their once in a life tag.

So why should the 1 horned ram “resource” get squandered. Why should those rams all die of predation, drought, or old age instead of utilizing the resource.

If you had to burn your ONCE IN A LIFETIME points to draw a sheep tag, would you put in for the 1 horned ram hunts before you were 70? My guess is probably not. So after 70 you can put in for them, like a last ditch effort to get a sheep tag.

Can’t we be happy the state isn’t squandering a resource? And opening doors for people?

Of course, no one can, cause it’s a me me me attitude, **** everyone else, I’m the most important.

If some old man was telling the story of his one horned ram I would be pretty damn excited for him.

He can tell it after drawing a tag the way every other person does.

 

[canyonhunter47]

Of course, no one can, cause it’s a me me me attitude, **** everyone else, I’m the most important.

That’s the attitude of the ones begging the G&F for special tags

Can’t we be happy the state isn’t squandering a resource? And opening doors for people?

Nobody objects to one-horn tags

 

[TrackerG]

That’s the attitude of the ones begging the G&F for special tags

Is is anyone begging G&F for “special tags” or is the state seeing an unused resource as an opportunity that can be utilized?

 

[canyonhunter47]

Is is anyone begging G&F for “special tags” or is the state seeing an unused resource as an opportunity that can be utilized?

They can utilize the resource by issuing one horn tags open to all applicants

And yes, just read through the comments on hunt guidelines. Lots of comments whining for early rifle elk, late rifle deer and sheep tags carved out just for them

Edited to add the quote from the proposal (Page 9 of the doc):

The Commission proposes to establish a Pioneer License holder one-horned ram season. […] This change is in response to customer comments.

 

[S.Clancy]

Is is anyone begging G&F for “special tags” or is the state seeing an unused resource as an opportunity that can be utilized?

Yes, someone is begging.

The way it works in most states is a "user group" writes the commission about a change in regulation, allocation, etc. Then, the commission gets public comment during a comment period and then (usually) there is a commission meeting where more public comment can be heard. The commission then votes on whether to accept or deny the change.

So, there has to be an impetuous for someone to write the commission. A lot of times that is outfitter and guides association (that would be my guess here), in MT case a lot of our extra allocations for NR are thought up by state legislatures that want their kids (who move out of state) to have the opportunity to hunt more often (thats literally the reason our "come home to hunt" program and others were started).

For the most part (there are exceptions) game and fish agencies don't come up with these set parts on their own, it's a group coming up with a set aside for themselves and running it thru the commissions

 

[CorbLand]

You’re tired of outfitter welfare? That 70 year old guy doesn’t have to hire an outfitter. He could have some kids or grandkids come out and spend a week glassing with him, very easily. An outfitter provides a service. NO ONE has to hire an outfitter to hunt on public land in AZ. A person CHOOSES to hire an outfitter. That’s why outfitters exist. It would be “outfitter welfare” if the regs stated “all tag recipients must hire a qualified guide or outfitter”

I guess I’m just confused as to why the **** anyone cares. There is an estimated 7 rams in the state that fall into the 1 horned ram category. And I can guarantee you any good hunter isn’t going to choose to shoot a 1 horned ram on their once in a life tag.

So why should the 1 horned ram “resource” get squandered. Why should those rams all die of predation, drought, or old age instead of utilizing the resource.

If you had to burn your ONCE IN A LIFETIME points to draw a sheep tag, would you put in for the 1 horned ram hunts before you were 70? My guess is probably not. So after 70 you can put in for them, like a last ditch effort to get a sheep tag.

Can’t we be happy the state isn’t squandering a resource? And opening doors for people?

Of course, no one can, cause it’s a me me me attitude, **** everyone else, I’m the most important.

If some old man was telling the story of his one horned ram I would be pretty damn excited for him.

Nobody in this thread has a problem with the one horned tag. They have a problem that they would only be available to a certain subset of people.

If some 12 year old was telling me about his/her one horned ram, I would be pretty excited for him/her.

Honestly, they should just open this up and sell the tags over the counter. 150 bucks a pop, unlimited tags, can only shoot a one horned ram and it counts against your once in a lifetime when you do. I would buy one.

Hell, there could be one one horned ram in the entire state and I would probably buy one.

 

[OMB]

If you had to burn your ONCE IN A LIFETIME points to draw a sheep tag, would you put in for the 1 horned ram hunts before you were 70? My guess is probably not. So after 70 you can put in for them, like a last ditch effort to get a sheep tag.

Yes, I would do it in a heartbeat. There are literally prominent people in the hunting industry that have publicly advocated that people sheep hunting on a budget should try to find management hunts in Mexico for one horned rams.

Can’t we be happy the state isn’t squandering a resource? And opening doors for people?

Of course, no one can, cause it’s a me me me attitude, **** everyone else, I’m the most important.

The generation of people that this proposal is targeted at is quite literally the most "Me First", self-absorbed Generation in modern American history. I want to stick to the topic and not get into how great Boomers have had it and how much they hold this entire country hostage to make sure they're well taken care of, but I digress.

At age 70+ as a resident, they've had the opportunity to get into the points system from the ground floor and draw a sheep tag many times over at this point. I'm sure it's terrible to realize that you're in no man's land points wise towards the end of life, but that's the game now, plan accordingly. A desert sheep hunt in Mexico is less than half the cost of that new RV or pontoon, and it will most likely have both horns.

 

[flathead#2]

Cant imagine buying points that long to burn em on a one horned ram.
Sounds like a way to kick people out the pool.

 

[BBob]

they've had the opportunity to get into the points system from the ground floor and draw a sheep tag many times over at this point.

Many times over? In AZ? You can only draw two AZ sheep tags in your lifetime and the number of people lucky enough to have drawn both a desert and a rocky are very few. The max point pool is still going to take a few years to churn through and the next group is much larger and will take much longer to get through. Many holding 1 less than max right now will die or not be able to hunt before they draw. Time is not on their side.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

If regular tag holders aren't killing one horned rams, why not offer opportunities to remove these rams from the landscape?

Are these rams breeding? Are they dying of old age?

I believe NV has a one horn specific tag as well for this very reason. Increase opportunity (albeit small). If you gave me the choice between hunting for a one horned ram, or not hunting at all....I'd gladly go hunting.

 

[BBob]

Are they dying of old age?

I haven’t looked at the data myself but from others that do they are said to be dying of old age. Which is why they’ve been suggested as a separate hunt to provide additional opportunities and options to hunt. This isn’t something new. It’s been talked about for a number of years now and finally being taken up by the commission.

 

[wind gypsy]

The user group who’s has had better odds and opportunities than all that follow doesn’t deserve a special carve out. Sounds like the one horn rams deal is something they should issue as additional opportunity for everyone though.

 

[Trial153]

This like when you step in dog shit and try to wipe off in pile of cow shit .
We built systems that penalized hunters based on when they were born, and now we are doubling down on it.

 

[RdRdrFan]

Doesn’t sound like this will do much to clear out many point holders. Very few tags like this could be issued.

More importantly, don’t have a grudge against the 70+ crowd. But I also don’t believe in tag welfare in any of the forms in which we get to experience it.

And let’s be clear……tag welfare is there and we have all taken advantage of it at some point. For me, I put my boys in for youth only tags. Thats tag welfare. For New Mexico I put in for the guide draw pool. Tag welfare. I don’t believe that it’s right but it would be foolish of me to ignore the opportunities that are out there that increase my chances to get me or my boys in the field. Resident vs NR tag allocations….tag welfare. If you are a resident of a state that has this form of tag welfare then you are a fool if you don’t claim your residency status when applying.

Just put applicants for each hunt code in a pot and pull the names. Stop with the BS.