Arrow Penetration....

[Felix40]

After I shot an NAP Spitfire through an elk at 78 yards, and watched it fly across the drainage behind, I decided that penetration doesn’t need to be my main concern. Since then I’ve pretty much only shot mechanicals(from the compound) with no complaints. I shot one through a small mule deer at 45yds and it sliced all the way through the off side leg bone at the elbow and passed through. The leg was only being held on by a little skin.

I really like knowing that my arrows are going where I want them even with a little wind and stress. It hasn’t been my experience (passthrough vs passthrough) but if I had to give up a few inches of penetration to always hit where I want, I would do it. Even an elk only takes like 16” to get to the vitals from any reasonable angle. With a compound I’ve never had less than that.

The only real weakness I see with good mechanicals is shooting through vegetation. Tall grass or willow leaves scare me enough to keep a fixed blade available.

 

[Bump79]

After I shot an NAP Spitfire through an elk at 78 yards, and watched it fly across the drainage behind, I decided that penetration doesn’t need to be my main concern. Since then I’ve pretty much only shot mechanicals(from the compound) with no complaints. I shot one through a small mule deer at 45yds and it sliced all the way through the off side leg bone at the elbow and passed through. The leg was only being held on by a little skin.

I really like knowing that my arrows are going where I want them even with a little wind and stress. It hasn’t been my experience (passthrough vs passthrough) but if I had to give up a few inches of penetration to always hit where I want, I would do it. Even an elk only takes like 16” to get to the vitals from any reasonable angle. With a compound I’ve never had less than that.

The only real weakness I see with good mechanicals is shooting through vegetation. Tall grass or willow leaves scare me enough to keep a fixed blade available.

If you like the Spitfire check these out.. They launched them as Truglo but then switched it to the Titanium NAP Spitfire. Same head just clearing out the old name.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BCW5T5V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Felix40]

If you like the Spitfire check these out.. They launched them as Truglo but then switched it to the Titanium NAP Spitfire. Same head just clearing out the old name.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BCW5T5V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That’s interesting for sure. I just like the spitfires because they are sharp and stay closed/don’t rattle without needing rubber bands.

 

[doc holiday13]

The bow setup plays into it as well. Someone with a 32" draw pulling 75lbs and sending 500+gr arrows above 300fps is alot different than someone with a 28" draw at 60lbs sending an arrow 125-150gr lighter going 275 or slower.

This

My friends wife killed a 300" bull last year with a 44# bow and she has a 26" draw.....shot placement wins every time

 

[Bump79]

That’s interesting for sure. I just like the spitfires because they are sharp and stay closed/don’t rattle without needing rubber bands.

Yeah if they just made the blades not have a hole in it for the retention but another divot I'd say they would be one of the best.

 

[5MilesBack]

Yeah if they just made the blades not have a hole in it for the retention but another divot I'd say they would be one of the best.

Ya, I haven't done any testing yet, but that hole might be interesting after shooting them angled through 3/4" plywood, and 2x6's. I'll see.

 

[Billy Goat]

Holes??

When did Spitfire get holes in the blade?
Or these truglo titanium things I got a bunch of that I haven't even looked at.

 

[MuleyBuck]

This is what I've found as well. Shooting broadheads for me is like what some guys do with building loads for bullets. I find some I want to try and shoot them a PILE. I work from home now so I can shoot out to 70 at the house to get myself up and moving as a break. I bet I have pushing 2,000 broadhead shots per year. If you shoot enough - you'll notice that some heads just seem to hit behind the pin more often. That shot where you go oooofffffff pulled that one! But it still hits on average that's the head that makes my quiver. Some heads like the popular long unvented solid heads are very unforgiving. Will they fly? Sure. Will they plane off more if you didn't have perfect execution? Yep.

There absolutely are fixed that fly well and make that for me. To be fair - Slick Trick Standards do fly really well. I'd rank them pretty high on my list for fixed heads.

I too test a lot of different broadheads and I agree with you on some fixed flying like field points and others not and wind drift etc. But I’m not fully convinced on the forgiveness portion for poor form or poorly executed shots.

When you’re at the range and you target panic yank a field point execution it flies just as far off as when you did it with a good flying fixed broadhead, it just happens way rarer, because it’s way easier to not do that when you don’t have an expensive broadhead on the end of your arrow.

Take a good flying fixed broadhead, like an Exodus, a TOTA, a Slick Trick, etc and purposely torque your bow as far as you can left or right and then hold it steady and shoot it at the target with a field tip. In my tests out to 60 yards, I’ve actually sliced fletching off the field tip arrow (learned my lesson multiple times not to shoot that one first…). Bow hand torque on a well tuned bow doesn’t seem to make a difference, but there may be some nuance there with getting lucky with my setup and what guys call “torque tuning”, not sure.

There are some pre-shot, subconscious yanks of the bow hand though that have a big affect on arrow flight and POI, but they have a real similar impact with field tips as well.

I do agree though that some fixed do amplify those issues people have. Good conversation

 

[WVELK]

Your opinion doesn't hold with mathematics. The larger the surface area of a given head, the more drag it creates, the more it can go of course with minor errors in shooting form which all humans have. Basically no one has a statistically significant group size with arrows. Most people shoot 1 broadhead with 2 field points and then "that broadhead flies just like a field point". If you sat down and shot 30 arrows of field points and then 30 arrows with ANY broadhead (mechs included) the group size of that broadhead will be larger than the field points. That one you "pulled" 16" high and to the left is actually a data point that describes the overall group size and variability of whatever broadhead you choose to shoot.

I appreciate your thoughts. However, you missed my point. I was never talking about a multi arrow group size. I was talking about a single arrow with a field point being able to strike at the same point of impact over and over again. Versus the same arrow with a fixed standard head slick trick being able to strike at the same point of impact over and over again. If I find time to look for it there is an excellent video of a test using a shooting machine and Slick Trick standards versus field points. In that test it too shows the fixed head created a more consistent group single arrow to single arrow. With all due respect, it is not just mathematics, it is aeronautical engineering. But, to each his own. Thanks again for you thoughts.

 

[WVELK]

You should share these findings with people that make their living shooting targets. I’m sure they’d be thrilled to learn that 4 blade slick tricks are in fact more accurate than field tips.


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With all due respect, I made a living shooting targets in the late 80s and 90s. Then went into manufacturing archery products for 20 plus years. So been there done that. You are more than welcome to come visit me and we will go over this analysis in the shop and the field. In the meantime, as noted above there i a great video showing this with a shooting machine somewhere on the net.

But, I do agree with others in that for the average guy the mechanicals will almost always shoot more accurately. I am on the fence as to the wind issue raised by others. It would depend upon the heads used, but generally I think the mechanical would be more accurate. But, standing firm that the slick trick single arrow versus field point single arrow will out shoot the field point.

 

[Billy Goat]

Holes??

When did Spitfire get holes in the blade?
Or these truglo titanium things I got a bunch of that I haven't even looked at.

So, apparently I overlooked and completely forgot about the holes in the Spitfire blades.

These truglo heads have a different blade profile tho, and the placement of that hole is definitely concerning.

 

[Billy Goat]

I appreciate your thoughts. However, you missed my point. I was never talking about a multi arrow group size. I was talking about a single arrow with a field point being able to strike at the same point of impact over and over again. Versus the same arrow with a fixed standard head slick trick being able to strike at the same point of impact over and over again. If I find time to look for it there is an excellent video of a test using a shooting machine and Slick Trick standards versus field points. In that test it too shows the fixed head created a more consistent group single arrow to single arrow. With all due respect, it is not just mathematics, it is aeronautical engineering. But, to each his own. Thanks again for you thoughts.

How far was this shooting at?

A shooting machine used correctly should be putting the same arrow back in the sane hole, so I'm not really following group size unless you are talking about excess of 80 yards, which there's probably too many external variables at that point, unless it's being done indoors.

 

[fatlander]

The internet is undefeated. It’s no longer “these broadheads fly like field tips”. We’ve graduated to “these broadhead fly better than field tips”.


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[MuleyBuck]

It’s not if a mechanical is going to fail you, it’s when is that mechanical going to fail you. Murphy’s Law: if something bad can happen, it will happen.

Hopefully it’s not on the bull elk of a lifetime when it does happen.

For deer sized critters though, shoot whatever you want if you’ve got the set-up for it.

 

[fatlander]

It’s not if a mechanical is going to fail you, it’s when is that mechanical going to fail you. Murphy’s Law: if something bad can happen, it will happen.

Hopefully it’s not on the bull elk of a lifetime when it does happen.

For deer sized critters though, shoot whatever you want if you’ve got the set-up for it.

It’s not when you’re going to have a form break down and make a worse shot with a fixed head than you would with a mech , it’s when.

You can play that game all day long with anything.


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[MuleyBuck]

It’s not when you’re going to have a form break down and make a worse shot with a fixed head than you would with a mech , it’s when.

You can play that game all day long with anything.


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Form can breakdown and you can make just as bad of a shot with a mechanical with less penetration forgiveness. You’ve never had form break down on a windless day with a field point at the range and hit 10”-12” off at hunting ranges?

I can practice controlling form and mentality in high pressure situations. I can’t practice a mechanical failing on a bull that moves on the string.

I understand your logic but I don’t agree with it. You can target panic yank a mechanical just as far off as a fixed blade. See my post about purposely torquing your bow with a good flying fixed blade and then aiming and shooting a target and comparing it to doing the same thing with a field point. I don’t think you’ll find it makes much difference between the broadhead and field point. At least it doesn’t when I play around with it.

This is coming from experience of shooting lots of animals, and I 100% would have recovered the ones that went bad with an expandable had I just been shooting a fixed blade..

Again, I’m talking about elk.

 

[Billy Goat]

If you take a high profile fixed blade, especially a solid blade, it is definitely less forgiving than a mechanical to form issues at the shot.


Not saying there's not forgiving fixed blade heads, but most of the larger (1.25" or larger) fixed heads are going to drift further off at the shot.


Maybe a pretty slow setup, with a whole lot of fletch would prevent it, but in the realm of what most people are going to shoot with a compound, it will show up.

 

[MuleyBuck]

If you take a high profile fixed blade, especially a solid blade, it is definitely less forgiving than a mechanical to form issues at the shot.


Not saying there's not forgiving fixed blade heads, but most of the larger (1.25" or larger) fixed heads are going to drift further off at the shot.


Maybe a pretty slow setup, with a whole lot of fletch would prevent it, but in the realm of what most people are going to shoot with a compound, it will show up.

If your form is breaking down so much that you are completely missing an animal or hitting a non lethal location, I’m not sure I would call that a breakdown in form, but it would be more of a target panic issue. Punching the trigger, dropping the bow, yanking the pin into position while firing, not looking at your pin or lining up your peep while shooting, not remembering even seeing your sight, I wouldn’t consider those form issues, those are buck fever issues.

Form issues should not cause non lethal hits at hunting distances out of a properly tuned bow. Those issues described are more severe and should be addressed and prepared for before taking a shot at a live animal, and there are ways to address them. If you are doing those things and missing or wounding and blaming it on a fixed blade, that’s crazy and is more of an ethics related situation on your end. But I’m willing to change my mind and love hearing other’s opinions. Thank you for the discourse!

 

[Billy Goat]

If your form is breaking down so much that you are completely missing an animal or hitting a non lethal location, I’m not sure I would call that a breakdown in form, but it would be more of a target panic issue. Punching the trigger, dropping the bow, yanking the pin into position while firing, not looking at your pin or lining up your peep while shooting, not remembering even seeing your sight, I wouldn’t consider those form issues, those are buck fever issues.

Form issues should not cause non lethal hits at hunting distances out of a properly tuned bow. Those issues described are more severe and should be addressed and prepared for before taking a shot at a live animal, and there are ways to address them. If you are doing those things and missing or wounding and blaming it on a fixed blade, that’s crazy and is more of an ethics related situation on your end. But I’m willing to change my mind and love hearing other’s opinions. Thank you for the discourse!

I can torque a bow and send a large fixed blade off the target over 2 feet at 45 yards.


A form breakdown can be a lot of things, a dip bang can also be one. That's simply not keeping back tension causing a fall, usually followed by a rapid push up to get the bow back on target. That's a movement while the arrow is being released thats not typical, but can definitely influence it outside of the normal lateral movement from the release.

 

[MuleyBuck]

I can torque a bow and send a large fixed blade off the target over 2 feet at 45 yards.


A form breakdown can be a lot of things, a dip bang can also be one. That's simply not keeping back tension causing a fall, usually followed by a rapid push up to get the bow back on target. That's a movement while the arrow is being released thats not typical, but can definitely influence it outside of the normal lateral movement from the release.

Interesting. I don’t see those results with Exodus, TOTA XL, Kudu, or Grim Reaper 3-blades out to 60 yards out of my set-up, test it all the time just to see if I could blame a bad shot on that, but one thing I’ve read about or seen somewhere was torque tuning. Never looked into it or tried to actually torque tune my bow, but maybe I just got lucky that my current setup is accidentally optimally torque tuned, idk. If I remember right, had something to do with how far your sight is from your bow or something. But my set-up is pretty standard I would think.