Arrow penetration

[MightyWhitey]

Your charts make for interesting food for thought. And I’ve been flirting with the idea of dropping from 665 to 600gr to see how that does. I’m curious, if me shooting 30yds with my setup is too risky, what does the computer say about the trad guy shooting 500gr with 45# at 20yds?

 

[Bump79]

Your charts make for interesting food for thought. And I’ve been flirting with the idea of dropping from 665 to 600gr to see how that does. I’m curious, if me shooting 30yds with my setup is too risky, what does the computer say about the trad guy shooting 500gr with 45# at 20yds?

Assuming that arrow is moving around 150 fps - The estimated movement time would be around 23% more than your shot at 30 yards.

I'd be interested to test this - but I've never heard a compound get as quiet as a trad bow regardless of arrow weight. It's still way louder. My ear couldn't tell a major difference after 450 grains with my compound but I'll get a decibel meter to test this when I build some more arrows for testing. I'm not a trad guy but I hear that they don't react the same and sometimes you'll even get a second shot. The bow and arrow are significantly quieter.

I've been playing around with this data from ArcheryTalks 2020 noise test video. The simple explanation is that sound at distance reduces quickly then slowly tapers off. So if a recurve starts at 50% of the decimals - at 20 yds it's actually on 26% as loud as the compounds. It makes sense to me that how loud the noise is will cause the animal to react differently.


So the theory would be that while their arrow gets to 20 yds in less time than yours gets to 30. It's significantly less noisy and the animal wouldn't jump out of it's skin. If someone with a decibel meter and a recurve can give me some data that would be awesome to see.

 

[Beendare]

Beendare, are you only shooting 20yds and in? Trajectory is part of it, aiming method, holding weight and release method greatly are bigger factors that limit range more than trajectory. If it was trajectory only I think they’d be shooting lighter arrows, no?

I’m not arguing about the trade offs, but I don’t think they’re as drastic as the Ashby haters make it out to be and that they’ve got some devious plot for self gain any more than they accuse the archery industry of.

I’ve got a leg on both sides of this fence. I shoot a compound, but I it shoot instinctive and have been for about 20yrs. For the longest time I shot a gold tip 7595 with a 125gr coc head out of a 70lb bow. And my max range was about 30yds. Never had any penetration trouble, but only hunted WT and took broadside or quartering away shots. I did have some structural integrity issues but I just thought that’s the way it was.

About 5 or so years ago I got interested in this Ashby stuff and liked the thought of a tougher arrow that was more leathal in more situations (shot angles). I was also looking for a new bow at about that time and got a 80lb to try to push this new heavier arrow at similar speed (trajectory). I settled on a 665gr arrow that ended up doing 240fps. (Making my 3/4 ton work a little.) Im shooting better at longer ranges than I ever have. Not saying it’s because of a heavier arrow at all. It’s from Tom Clums coaching and more practice.

So I don’t think it’s fair to say a heavier arrow is less accurate. It’s the yardage estimation that lacks accuracy.

It seems illogical to me to up your weight just to put a head with the least structural integrity (mechanical), since we already agreed that that was more important than weight. And aren’t heads with wider cuts less accurate?

As far as different penetration tests go, maybe I’m wrong but isn’t the Ashby foundation the only ones shooting arrows into whole animals for testing? I agree that they use some strong language in those charts etc that pisses people off and I get it, I’m sure more animals have died with lesser weights than what they’re saying is acceptable.

Anyway we can point the finger back at each other forever and I’m not sure there’s a right answer. We just each have to choose what limitations we’re comfortable with. I don’t want to have to pass on a 30yd quartering to shot and you probably don’t want to have to pass on a 65 but maybe it’s 70yd shot. I doubt your faster lighter setup gives you any more advantages than my quieter heavier setup does. To each their own I reckon.

Respectfully, you are putting words in my mouth that aren’t true.

it is true I was blowing through critters with a measly recurve- sorry if that bugs you but its true. The 2 yrs 8 shot a 46# ILF recurve, I was 10 passthrus for 13 critters - and 2 of the non passes were in the offside shoulders of 2 wild hogs…and one javelina. That happens on a quartering shot.

I shot an 800# moose broadside at 30y and the arrow barely slowed down. I dont even count the second shot that blew through 6” from the first. My buddy Tim witnessed it.

I’ve been saying the same thing for years; perfect arrow flight….paired with an efficient BH design ( I use a tapered 2 blade) and they go through these critters like hot butter. All of the other factors are secondary.

Sure, bumping up your arrow weight increases penetration…but there are huge tradeoffs To the massive arrow weight the influencers recommend.

Sure trajectory is an issue with trad gear- no disagreement there.…That 46# bowthe point on was 45y, mid point of that recurve had a big gap of an inch at the arrow tip, 30”+ on the critter. My current setup has a 5/8” gap and 20” at the target (40y PO)

That bad trajectory along with a higher degree of difficulty makes shooting long shots difficult…just like shooting a “ Manly” arrow- grin

 

[Beendare]

The problem with Bumps charts in relation to reaction time;

Animals don’t react as violently to quiet bows or on long shots- assuming they didn’t make you.

 

[Bump79]

The problem with Bumps charts in relation to reaction time;

Animals don’t react as violently to quiet bows or on long shots- assuming they didn’t make you.

I agree with this. That's what I was trying to get at with my sound reduction at distance post. I agree that in addition to be being less loud - they can pin point the distance it is coming from and their instinct make a determination on how much they should react.

This actually jives out with what I hear a lot of people say. Like Levi Morgan saying he's more worried about animal movement at 30 than he is at 45. Or something like that. I've heard John Stallone say it too for Coues deer.

 

[MightyWhitey]

Respectfully, you are putting words in my mouth that aren’t true.

it is true I was blowing through critters with a measly recurve- sorry if that bugs you but its true. The 2 yrs 8 shot a 46# ILF recurve, I was 10 passthrus for 13 critters - and 2 of the non passes were in the offside shoulders of 2 wild hogs…and one javelina. That happens on a quartering shot.

I shot an 800# moose broadside at 30y and the arrow barely slowed down. I dont even count the second shot that blew through 6” from the first. My buddy Tim witnessed it.

I’ve been saying the same thing for years; perfect arrow flight….paired with an efficient BH design ( I use a tapered 2 blade) and they go through these critters like hot butter. All of the other factors are secondary.

Sure, bumping up your arrow weight increases penetration…but there are huge tradeoffs To the massive arrow weight the influencers recommend.

Sure trajectory is an issue with trad gear- no disagreement there.…That 46# bowthe point on was 45y, mid point of that recurve had a big gap of an inch at the arrow tip, 30”+ on the critter. My current setup has a 5/8” gap and 20” at the target (40y PO)

That bad trajectory along with a higher degree of difficulty makes shooting long shots difficult…just like shooting a “ Manly” arrow- grin

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying/asking. I was disagreeing with Bumps comment that most trad guys are limiting themselves to 15-20yds because of the poor trajectory of their heavy arrows. So I was asking if you limited yourself to 20yds, assuming you likely don’t.
And I have zero doubt in your recurves lethality.

 

[Beendare]

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying/asking. I was disagreeing with Bumps comment that most trad guys are limiting themselves to 15-20yds because of the poor trajectory of their heavy arrows. So I was asking if you limited yourself to 20yds, assuming you likely don’t.
And I have zero doubt in your recurves lethality.

Ok my bad…I wasn’t sure what you were getting at.

Personally, My ability as a shooter restricts my shot distance….not my equipment. Same with compound or recurve.

There was years when I was competitive with a compound, one year I drilled a wounded buck at 92y. I first shot him at 70y in a high sage flat and he turned while the arrow was in the air, caught him in the shoulder.

I have shot a compound 1/2 dozen times in 10 years- so right now I wouldn’t shoot over 25 with that compound.

Trad; There are years I shot my recurve a lot; 3D tourneys, the Trad Nationals (but didn’t crack top 20) and practiced for a shot I knew I would get-45y across a tank. I drilled a P&Y Coues deer at 47y that year. I’ve shot a couple hogs at 35/40y but most of my shots are 25y and in. Longer shots are doable if you practice. This year my effective distance is 25-30y even tho its a flatter/better setup.

 

[MightyWhitey]

“Personally, My ability as a shooter restricts my shot distance….not my equipment. Same with compound or recurve.”

Thats more so the point I’m trying to make. It’s the Indian, not the heavy arrow that is the restriction.

 

[Bump79]

“Personally, My ability as a shooter restricts my shot distance….not my equipment. Same with compound or recurve.”

Thats more so the point I’m trying to make. It’s the Indian, not the heavy arrow that is the restriction.

This year my effective distance is 25-30y even tho its a flatter/better setup.

He also said this.

 

[MightyWhitey]

“I have shot a compound 1/2 dozen times in 10 years- so right now I wouldn’t shoot over 25 with that compound.”

He also said that. And he’s definitely not a heavy arrow compound guy. So it’s still the Indian.

Have we narrowed this down to a sound, distance, reaction time debate? If so I think that’s the least likely issue anybody has a chance at being accurate about.

Im still curious if your charts are ok with Beendares trad setup. If he said his specs I missed it, but it seems nobody has a problem with a trad guy shooting 550gr at 45#. Is that setup “acceptable” at 30yds or is it “unethical” like my 665gr/240fps at 40yds?

 

[5MilesBack]

We misuse about our terms in archery. There's a difference between accuracy and precision - see below.

I've seen those charts many times, but for me.....IMO.....my arrows are neither accurate or precise if they aren't hitting behind my pins. A 1-inch group that's 3" away from the bullseye does me no good. Time to make some adjustments if that's the case. I also don't think that arrows scattered around the bullseye are all that accurate......if you're aiming for the center of the bullseye.

 

[AkRyan]

I suspect that's more a tuning issue.


I can shoot 600 gr bareshafts (out of my recurve) and they don't fly point down. The effects of gravity are the same if it's going 100 fps or 1000 fps. Only difference would be drag from the vanes is increased with higher speed, which would bring the back of the shaft down.

But that means the arrow is launching/recovering point down which is out of tune.

How do you know your arrow isn't point down? And what your saying is point weight won't bring the tip down during flight at lower speeds?

 

[AkRyan]

I suspect that's more a tuning issue.


I can shoot 600 gr bareshafts (out of my recurve) and they don't fly point down. The effects of gravity are the same if it's going 100 fps or 1000 fps. Only difference would be drag from the vanes is increased with higher speed, which would bring the back of the shaft down.

But that means the arrow is launching/recovering point down which is out of tune.

Go shoot a target at 20yrs with your 600g bare shaft with your target set at eye height. Then post pictures of your arrows with a level on them. Do the same with a 450g arrow and then we can debate

 

[MightyWhitey]

Respectfully, you are putting words in my mouth that aren’t true.

it is true I was blowing through critters with a measly recurve- sorry if that bugs you but its true. The 2 yrs 8 shot a 46# ILF recurve, I was 10 passthrus for 13 critters - and 2 of the non passes were in the offside shoulders of 2 wild hogs…and one javelina. That happens on a quartering shot.

I shot an 800# moose broadside at 30y and the arrow barely slowed down. I dont even count the second shot that blew through 6” from the first. My buddy Tim witnessed it.

I’ve been saying the same thing for years; perfect arrow flight….paired with an efficient BH design ( I use a tapered 2 blade) and they go through these critters like hot butter. All of the other factors are secondary.

Sure, bumping up your arrow weight increases penetration…but there are huge tradeoffs To the massive arrow weight the influencers recommend.

Sure trajectory is an issue with trad gear- no disagreement there.…That 46# bowthe point on was 45y, mid point of that recurve had a big gap of an inch at the arrow tip, 30”+ on the critter. My current setup has a 5/8” gap and 20” at the target (40y PO)

That bad trajectory along with a higher degree of difficulty makes shooting long shots difficult…just like shooting a “ Manly” arrow- grin

All of this-
You’re blowing through all your animals, but saying bad trajectory is an issue. Why aren’t you shooting a much lighter arrow to improve that trajectory? Your arrow barely slowed down going through a 800# moose. Or hell, use all that extra horse power to use a head with a wider cut, or a mechanical…?

So just to make sure I’m understanding correctly:
- A trad guy can shoot a very heavy arrow out of a slow bow at 30yds with an aiming method that is only slightly better than having your eyes closed, and he gets a pat on the back?
- But if a compound guy with a more efficient bow, front sight, rear sight, release, and range finder shoots an equivalent TAW/ per pounds of draw weight he’s a Kool aid drinker?
Are you guys really drying to justify that double standard all with bow noise? If so, the compound guy is usually farther away, which you already said helps the situation. And if he’s closer, he’s way faster.


And Beendare can handle that poor trajectory at 30yds and kill that efficiently but it’s just downright impossible for a compound guy with every mechanical and digital advantage under the sun to handle at his max range??

 

[roosiebull]

It seems to me that the very heavy arrow and very high FOC proponents-the 2 most well known; Ashbys and Ranch Fairy- have a following by the bowhunters that had poor arrow performance.

They claim, “ Use our setup” when all along there are trad guys with very low energy setups and a million bowhunters using an avg arrow in the mid 400’s and good arrow flight blowing through everything.
So what gives?

I think this vid explains it…at least partially. A tiny wobble in arrow flight can kill penetration. Factor in, many guys shooting the big mech heads don’t BH tune. ( the guys that do never complain about penetration- hmmmm)

Then there is the fact we sometimes lose perfect form on a hunting shot-another case of poor arrow flight.

These factors can be cumulative- no BH tuning, inefficient BH, form errors, etc-

I think THATS why guys migrate to these internet influencers heavy arrow solution instead of solving those issues- they want a silver bullet.

Otherwise why on gods green earth would guys think they need a 700g arrow to kill a whitetail?

To me, it’s just odd that folks who are having poor results at one extreme think going all the way over to the other extreme is the answer

 

[bowhuntercoop]

Being a die hard trad guy I’ve tried the heavy arrows, the trajectory is terrible. Current set up the last few years has resulted in all pass through. 26 inch draw, 50lb longbow at my draw length, 500 grain arrow. 10 grains per pound, 42 yard point on. I know I will get shit for this. I’ve taken animals with this arrow set up from 4 yards out to 48. Vpa 250 grain 3 blade 1 1/8.

On my compounds I like 6-7 grains per pound with a coc head or smaller mechanicals. I will prolly take the compound for elk if I draw a tag this year. 26 inch draw, 76lbs, 425 grain arrow at 280. A 600-700 grain arrow with a single bevel still ain’t going through a shoulder with either of my set ups so I’ve settled on flat, accurate, super sharp heads and stay away from the shoulder.

Imo grains per pound and the head design have way more to do with penetration then overall arrow weight. Compounds are so efficient I don’t see a neeed to shoot more then 6-7gpp. Shoot what your confident in.

 

[Bump79]

I've seen those charts many times, but for me.....IMO.....my arrows are neither accurate or precise if they aren't hitting behind my pins. A 1-inch group that's 3" away from the bullseye does me no good. Time to make some adjustments if that's the case. I also don't think that arrows scattered around the bullseye are all that accurate......if you're aiming for the center of the bullseye.

Respectfully, agree with it or not - It's the technical definitions of the terms. Used broadly in many industries that require much stricter tolerances than what we do.

You're saying exactly what I am though - you've got to be both accurate and precise. That's the goal. But the those are the right terms to use. My point is you can be hitting exactly behind your 30 pin where you held it - doesn't mean anything if you misjudged the range and it hit high/low. You did everything right but the range was off. You as the machine were precise but not accurate. Range error is loss of accuracy as the goal was to hit where you intended. Doesn't mean jack if you don't.

This is what wins 3d tournaments. You can be the best shooter in the world - but if you're not good at judging range it doesn't mean anything. You won't win as your not hitting where your intending to. Regardless of how good your shot was. You might dominate known range courses but completely fall on your face at unknown. Due to lack of range accuracy.

 

[5MilesBack]

Respectfully, agree with it or not - It's the technical definitions of the terms. Used broadly in many industries that require much stricter tolerances than what we do.

Well ya, but are they machining, building, or shooting at targets? It also does them no good if they precisely machine something in the wrong spot. So definitions don't really do much good in either case.

 

[Beendare]

To me, it’s just odd that folks who are having poor results at one extreme think going all the way over to the other extreme is the answer

Exactly. @MightyWhitey, I am currently shooting a lighter arrow for better trajectory, 53# recurve, 435g arrow and it penetrates well tho I have had less time with it.

You seem to be under the impression that you NEED a heavy arrow to kill stuff- you don’t If you follow 2 simple rules; namely #1 being perfect arrow flight. This puts all ofthe energy exactly behind the BH.

The other tenant is BH efficiency…its the reason my measly 30ke recurve was blowing through everything- that and perfect arrow flight, #1 and #2- easy peasy.

Now if you have energy to burn- like a modern compound 60# and up- #1 arrow flight is still critical…but BH efficiency is less so, you can use an inefficient mech head or short wide chisel point design and get very good results.

Trajectory matters…the fact that trad is not nearly as accurate- especially at ranges past 30-40y is a testament to that fact. 3 yds off with my recurve at 40y is a miss…or barely clip the body….3y with my compound is a kill.

 

[MightyWhitey]

Exactly. @MightyWhitey, I am currently shooting a lighter arrow for better trajectory, 53# recurve, 435g arrow and it penetrates well tho I have had less time with it.

You seem to be under the impression that you NEED a heavy arrow to kill stuff- you don’t If you follow 2 simple rules; namely #1 being perfect arrow flight. This puts all ofthe energy exactly behind the BH.

The other tenant is BH efficiency…its the reason my measly 30ke recurve was blowing through everything- that and perfect arrow flight, #1 and #2- easy peasy.

Now if you have energy to burn- like a modern compound 60# and up- #1 arrow flight is still critical…but BH efficiency is less so, you can use an inefficient mech head or short wide chisel point design and get very good results.

Trajectory matters…the fact that trad is not nearly as accurate- especially at ranges past 30-40y is a testament to that fact. 3 yds off with my recurve at 40y is a miss…or barely clip the body….3y with my compound is a kill.

Ok, I’m with you now.

No, I know you don’t NEED a heavy arrow to kill things. I think it’s pretty hard NOT to kill something when you hit it in the vitals with nothing hard in the way.

But I do think (and it seems like we agree) that a heavier arrow increases your lethality when you do have something hard in the way. I think we agree that our aiming methods (instinctive to one degree or another) are our most limiting factor in our accuracy, I’m trying to shoot an arrow that’s the most lethal in the most scenarios that I can. Since I came from a lower poundage slower bow with a lighter arrow, to a higher poundage faster bow with a heavier arrow, my perceived trajectory didn’t change much if any. And may have even improved since I actually started tuning my arrows at that point.

And I’m only saying “heavier arrow” because we already agree on all the other factors that an arrow needs.