Arrow penetration

[Dennis]

Do you think you'd have the same luck with a 450 grain COC single bevel as the Slick Trick that has 4b chisel tip and four blades? Seems like a small increase from 400 gr to 450 gr (12.5%), a little more FOC (12-18%) and a super sharp COC head would address the penetration issue.

Yes, but I think only to a certain point. I never tried single bevels heads with my 425 grain builds. I think my FOC at that time was 11-12%. I thought I had built the perfect hunting arrow and several buddies followed along.

The photo below is just one example of my frustration and by no means the only example. This Antelope was broadside on video when I shot. I had no time to use a rangefinder and I was happy with the shot and point of impact given the conditions. Not perfect but to me it looked good enough. As he turned to run I realize I could see 2/3 the shaft sticking out. At about 200 yards the arrow fell out and he continued on for another 200 yards or so before lying down. Video kept rolling and we kept watching. After several hours I was pissed, because this was not the first time I had seen this same result. I finally snuck up to the big pine tree behind him and made a second shot. The second arrow never made it through from the other side either. I think on this antelope your suggested arrow would have surely helped and would have increase penetration.

 

[Zac]

This is an excellent point. If you run out the math these guys are facing an extraordinary amount of confirmation bias. They get people who have had penetration problems and they want a solution so it doesn't happen again. He solved the equation for the data provided. The problem is it's a skewed data set and it gives a false impression of the lethality problem. Most people aren't having penetration problems - even with junk heads and poor tunes. But stack too many things and you'll be in trouble.

You also hear about every pass through that a heavy SB setup does. Take the Hunting Public (who I like) there will be a video or multiple videos are year talking about they heavy single bevels when it worked - but you'll never see their setup pointed out when they gut shoot a whitetail as it had a longer time to react. Then they're left with a 1" 2b hole in it and the dogs get called. Maybe a larger cut fixed (or even a mechanical) would have put that animal down quicker. It's always one side of the story. Then the gut shot is well stuff happens.

Consider this: There's 3.5 million or so bow hunters in the US alone. Just for an example let's say 5% of those hunters have had penetration issues - That's 175,000 hunters and is not insignificant. Let's say one in 100 of those people it was enough of a concern that they reach out to RF and ask for advice. That's 1,750 emails or comments to Troy that is responding to per year. People aren't designed to take this much confirmation bias in - we can take some but not at this scale. Now, I don't know if that's accurate as I'm obviously not in his inbox but he gets a lot of views. Probably half of which are from guys like me who just like to nerd out and pick things that make sense to improve our build even though we haven't had penetration issues.

@Beendare I completely agree. I know a lot of guys who have shot Rage for like 15 years and have never had a single issue. Never even been on a track as it dies in sight. It seems like it's a massive disconnect between what is happening on YouTube and hunting TV shows and real life hunters. For me and those around me - I've never been on a track that was "I didn't get through near side bone". If you get through near side bone - it's dead nearby. If not it's probably alive and well. I have been on too many tracks from shots too far back. This is my number 1 issue. Enough so that it would actually be

Glad to hear it. He presents are very balanced view. I do as well - don't get me wrong. I just wish these influencers like RF would take this more reasonable stance. It's become like an ideology.

Why do you care? Would you sleep better at night knowing that more people are shooting 450 grain arrows?

 

[Jpsmith1]

Why do you care? Would you sleep better at night knowing that more people are shooting 450 grain arrows?

I think he's speaking to people being rational and reasonable rather than what they shoot.

Although a well tuned 450 will do better than a wobbly 600.

 

[Bump79]

The reason shots are too far back is because people are already erroring back to begin with. I'm not saying it's wrong, but there is definitely a correlation between lighter setups with mechanicals and the wrong shot being back instead of forward. Likewise the archer with the heavier fixed blade may be more prone to miss forward simply based on what is being aimed at. Your not going to see a lot of gut shots from the RF crowd because they are all aiming for the V. While the Dudley crowd is probably all aiming mid body.

I think that definitely is a portion of people. Personally, I think a large part of it is target panic. That's me anyway - I think in the moment I gravitate mid body. Even though I know full well to aim further forward and think I am.

Then also animals step forward at shot, people try to lead walking animals, etc.

 

[Bump79]

Why do you care? Would you sleep better at night knowing that more people are shooting 450 grain arrows?

I care when people deliberately mislead people. If you haven't read anything I've written in this thread - I'm just saying that there's tradeoff taking place for penetration. 29% loss of accuracy for example.

 

[Zac]

I care when people deliberately mislead people. If you haven't read anything I've written in this thread - I'm just saying that there's tradeoff taking place for penetration. 29% loss of accuracy for example.

Troy doesn't think he's misleading anyone. His advice is just fine for people swinging out of trees shooting white tails at odd shot angles. I think he's fairly open about that. He really doesn't apply to the western hunter much at all. I think most people can see that.

 

[MattB]

It is hard to imagine that people used to put 100 gr Muzzy’s on 2216’s and just go kill stuff with no penetration problems. If they only knew then what we know now, they would realize they just got really luck over and over and over…

 

[bowhuntercoop]

I’ve killed over 100 critters with the compounds, mostly deer and pigs. 26 inch draw, 60-70 lbs and 400-425 grain arrow with a fixed blade. Had one mature buck I shoulder shot that I didn’t recover, the rest have almost always been a pass through. When I tried mechs the pass through rate went down big time.

500 grain arrow outta my 50lb longbow results in just as many pass through a with a blazing 160 fps arrow. Tried the heavy 650-700 grain arrow outta the sticks and saw no advantage compared to 9-10 gpp with the trad stuff. Shoot what you’re comfortable and confident with imo.

 

[Billy Goat]

I think that definitely is a portion of people. Personally, I think a large part of it is target panic. That's me anyway - I think in the moment I gravitate mid body. Even though I know full well to aim further forward and think I am.

Then also animals step forward at shot, people try to lead walking animals, etc.

There's also a lot of people scared chitless of the shoulder knuckle, so that's where they are actually looking when they shoot.


And guess what, your arrow normally goes where you are looking.
Like if at the whaletails over the back, you send one North....

 

[Bump79]

Troy doesn't think he's misleading anyone. His advice is just fine for people swinging out of trees shooting white tails at odd shot angles. I think he's fairly open about that. He really doesn't apply to the western hunter much at all. I think most people can see that.

You're right. He doesn't think he's misleading anyone - but that doesn't change that he is. He's not challenging his biases. He's as often wrong as he is right.

He has entire videos dedicated to time in flight not being relevant for animal movement. He has entire series about tuning that says you don't "bend" the bow to the arrow. He just finally came around to that potentially being wrong with MFJJ. He constantly misreprents arrow trajectory (an entire video or two). He's a slew of good information mixed with terrible information. Half of his content is essentially talking crap saying there's some industry conspiracy - then he gets on a podcasts and plays the victim. As an adult I just have little patience for that childish behavior like that.

He has called Iron Will Bill a snake oil salesman and many other derogatory names. The irony being that he is a salesman by trade. It's pretty clear he's pitching his ideas and his desire is self promotion.

 

[Billy Goat]

 

[Zac]

You're right. He doesn't think he's misleading anyone - but that doesn't change that he is. He's not challenging his biases. He's as often wrong as he is right.

He has entire videos dedicated to time in flight not being relevant for animal movement. He has entire series about tuning that says you don't "bend" the bow to the arrow. He just finally came around to that potentially being wrong with MFJJ. He constantly misreprents arrow trajectory (an entire video or two). He's a slew of good information mixed with terrible information. Half of his content is essentially talking crap saying there's some industry conspiracy - then he gets on a podcasts and plays the victim. As an adult I just have little patience for that childish behavior like that.

He has called Iron Will Bill a snake oil salesman and many other derogatory names. The irony being that he is a salesman by trade. It's pretty clear he's pitching his ideas and his desire is self promotion.

The people that can tune a bow will. He just has some alternative methods. They aren’t wrong. If someone has a setup that is too slow for them they will realize it in one season and make changes. I really don’t see the hatred for that guy.

 

[MattB]

There's also a lot of people scared chitless of the shoulder knuckle, so that's where they are actually looking when they shoot.


And guess what, your arrow normally goes where you are looking.
Like if at the whaletails over the back, you send one North....

A buddy who is a very accomplished bowhunter. He has killed a bunch of Sitka Blacktails and I’ve watched him shoot only 2. One he hit in the antler and killed with a second shot and on the second hia initia shot buried into the skull right at the antler base. A rodeo ensued but the buck came back to the boat with us.

I think you are right about the arrow going where you are looking.

 

[Beendare]

Just like a bicycle, yep that arrow goes where you look.

How many trees right next to a deer target on the various 3d ranges have proved that? Grin

 

[Wilderlife]

I've been enjoying this thread, and a lot of information to come out about this stuff over the last 12 months.

Coincidentally, I've been shooting compound again for a little over 12 months, and was shooting a lot of trad before that.

I can't be bothered googling the numbers right now, but one of the conclusions I've come to is that if a 50-ish pound recurve and a 500gn arrow can blow through animals at approximately 170fps, or a 600gn arrow from a 65-ish pound recurve can do the same, or a 450gn arrow from a 42-ish pound recurve can do the same (all setups I've killed with recently), how on earth would a compound bow making close to double that amount of energy have a hard time blowing through something?

Most people here in Australia shoot fixed blade heads so broadhead tuning is a big part of what most of us do. I'm shooting more poundage and weight than is necessary but I can handle it comfortably and my trajectory in comps is fantastic so I'm having fun while doing it. But, even a 60# compound at a moderate draw length would produce more energy than my trad bow results.

So while I understand and agree with a lot of what RF says, I've also got my own experiences which suggest it's much less about weight and more about arrow flight, a sharp broadhead, and shot placement. Wow. Who would have guessed?

I like the idea of heavier arrows for different reasons and may go to a heavier broadhead with my compound after the fallow rut to have a 525gn arrow to shoot boars over winter, but that's just because it'd be fun and I like a particular 200gn broadhead and want to kill more stuff with it.

I'm also a firm believer in 'speed isn't everything', but I also believe that more speed if you can get it makes things much more forgiving when taking animal movement and quick decisions about range into account.

Lots of people have brought that up with RF and it goes over his head. People say "the main problem we see is that accuracy and shooting skill is a limiting factor so we want to help people hit what they're aiming at better", whereas RF says "people never think about what's actually going to happen to the arrow once it gets to the target."

Both good points on paper, but I think Snyder has pointed out many times that you're far more likely to hit guts than you are knuckle of the shoulder.

 

[Zac]

I've been enjoying this thread, and a lot of information to come out about this stuff over the last 12 months.

Coincidentally, I've been shooting compound again for a little over 12 months, and was shooting a lot of trad before that.

I can't be bothered googling the numbers right now, but one of the conclusions I've come to is that if a 50-ish pound recurve and a 500gn arrow can blow through animals at approximately 170fps, or a 600gn arrow from a 65-ish pound recurve can do the same, or a 450gn arrow from a 42-ish pound recurve can do the same (all setups I've killed with recently), how on earth would a compound bow making close to double that amount of energy have a hard time blowing through something?

Most people here in Australia shoot fixed blade heads so broadhead tuning is a big part of what most of us do. I'm shooting more poundage and weight than is necessary but I can handle it comfortably and my trajectory in comps is fantastic so I'm having fun while doing it. But, even a 60# compound at a moderate draw length would produce more energy than my trad bow results.

So while I understand and agree with a lot of what RF says, I've also got my own experiences which suggest it's much less about weight and more about arrow flight, a sharp broadhead, and shot placement. Wow. Who would have guessed?

I like the idea of heavier arrows for different reasons and may go to a heavier broadhead with my compound after the fallow rut to have a 525gn arrow to shoot boars over winter, but that's just because it'd be fun and I like a particular 200gn broadhead and want to kill more stuff with it.

I'm also a firm believer in 'speed isn't everything', but I also believe that more speed if you can get it makes things much more forgiving when taking animal movement and quick decisions about range into account.

Lots of people have brought that up with RF and it goes over his head. People say "the main problem we see is that accuracy and shooting skill is a limiting factor so we want to help people hit what they're aiming at better", whereas RF says "people never think about what's actually going to happen to the arrow once it gets to the target."

Both good points on paper, but I think Snyder has pointed out many times that you're far more likely to hit guts than you are knuckle of the shoulder.

Lack of penetration is more of a momentum sucking head issue than weight. The whole weight issue is for hitting bone. That’s why he calls it plan B or whatever. His crowd is already shooting forward so their whoopsies are going to be bone not guts. If you’re hunting out of a tree with sharp angles then all that weight is fine. As far as the speed goes there are other opinions. Ulmer says he has better luck at 250 fps with a blacked out arrow. He prefers them to be in the ballpark of 60 yards for that setup.

 

[5MilesBack]

Just like a bicycle, yep that arrow goes where you look.

I'm like that with 3D sometimes. The first guy will hit a couple inches off of where I want to hit, so I'll aim accordingly and still hit his arrow. SMH

 

[Bump79]

The people that can tune a bow will. He just has some alternative methods. They aren’t wrong. If someone has a setup that is too slow for them they will realize it in one season and make changes. I really don’t see the hatred for that guy.

I wouldn't describe it as hatred. Not even close. He's a public figure now - one that comes out and talks smack. If he's not right about something he needs to be a grown up and take his lickings. He presents things as science when his process is anything but science.

If I'm provably wrong about something (and not just opinion) I'd hope someone in this thread will give me mine.

I'm also a firm believer in 'speed isn't everything', but I also believe that more speed if you can get it makes things much more forgiving when taking animal movement and quick decisions about range into account.

This is all I'm trying to say. Just be honest about the tradeoffs and shoot what you like. Speed has tangible downsides such as a fixed blades tendency to plane off course is directly related to velocity squared. That's definitely something to consider! You want your setup to be forgiving. For me - my setup is designed around a 50 yard shot on an elk, antelope or mule deer. Time in flight and range being paramount as those are errors that I want to minimize. As you said - there's much more guts than bone so I like to keep my cut size up. But go too big then it flies bad. Back down velocity, or back down size to reign it in, add vents but then you increase noise and reduce durability. Everything is a tradeoff.

You're completely right though. How does it make sense that a 650 grain arrow from Ashby's longbow is the exact same weight that you need to use for a compound? Especially if you have a above average energy. It just doesn't pass the ol' smell test. Nor does it pass the physics test. Judge me if you like, I just like to stay in reality.

 

[doc holiday13]

It's been listening to Aron Snyder and several other extremely successful hunters basically laugh off the EFOC/heavy arrow stuff in favor of a moderately weighted arrow with reasonable FOC, super clean flight and a SHARP head and putting it where it belongs.

x2

I've been bow hunting since I was 12. I'm 40 now. Never considered, heard, or even thought about FOC till about 10ish years ago. The closest thing you can get to having a "silver bullet" is a sharp broadhead. Not a factory sharpened broadhead. A shaving sharp broadhead. A rediculously sharp broadhead will zip through a deer so fast they'll think they got stung by a bee.

There are MANY MANY factors that go into lost animals. It genuinely is a nuanced conversation. BUT lets look at equipment the equipment of ancient hunters.. They weren't using HIGH FOC arrows... I hate to conjecture, but my guess is that they're FOC was probably in the 8-10% range(if someone actually has this info I love to know TAW these guys were using) BUT their broadheads were VERY VERY sharp.

Snyder uses COC and Mech blades... Mech blades work. The have the potential to fly very accurately, but they gotta be sharp.

IF we are going to have any sort of rules that dictate our bowhunting setups they should be

1) Keep your bow in tune so your arrows fly perfectly
2) Practice and refine your shooting mechanics at least 1x per week. If you struggle to keep your arrows inside a 8" circle, you should probably seek some coaching.
3) Shoot your broadheads to confirm they fly properly.
4) ONLY use sharp broadheads when hunting. Sharp being confirmed by its ability to cleanly slice paper and not "i just got this out of the package" If your broadhead can't cleanly slice paper, its not sharp enough

Those are the ONLY things you can control during a hunt. You can't control the environment and you can't change the demeanor of an animal. All you can do is try to position those factors in your favor.

 

[ddowning]

x2

I've been bow hunting since I was 12. I'm 40 now. Never considered, heard, or even thought about FOC till about 10ish years ago. The closest thing you can get to having a "silver bullet" is a sharp broadhead. Not a factory sharpened broadhead. A shaving sharp broadhead. A rediculously sharp broadhead will zip through a deer so fast they'll think they got stung by a bee.

There are MANY MANY factors that go into lost animals. It genuinely is a nuanced conversation. BUT lets look at equipment the equipment of ancient hunters.. They weren't using HIGH FOC arrows... I hate to conjecture, but my guess is that they're FOC was probably in the 8-10% range(if someone actually has this info I love to know TAW these guys were using) BUT their broadheads were VERY VERY sharp.

Snyder uses COC and Mech blades... Mech blades work. The have the potential to fly very accurately, but they gotta be sharp.

IF we are going to have any sort of rules that dictate our bowhunting setups they should be

1) Keep your bow in tune so your arrows fly perfectly
2) Practice and refine your shooting mechanics at least 1x per week. If you struggle to keep your arrows inside a 8" circle, you should probably seek some coaching.
3) Shoot your broadheads to confirm they fly properly.
4) ONLY use sharp broadheads when hunting. Sharp being confirmed by its ability to cleanly slice paper and not "i just got this out of the package" If your broadhead can't cleanly slice paper, its not sharp enough

Those are the ONLY things you can control during a hunt. You can't control the environment and you can't change the demeanor of an animal. All you can do is try to position those factors in your favor.

I agree on the sharp broadhead point. I won't hunt with it if it won't shave a 3/4-1" bald spot across the entire blade in a single stroke on my arm. My first deer 20 something years ago was a 3 blade large cut mech, 63# draw weight and 315 grain 3d arrow. At 52 yards it blew through her like a hot knife through butter. As I got older the draw weight and arrow weight went up. I stopped sharpening blades. I didn't lose any, but they were making it further with less blood. I started sharpening again and had good blood, and they started dying in sight again. People overestimate the factory sharpness of most broadheads and underestimate the difference it makes.