Arrow Penetration on Elk

[TurkeyBowMaster]

Watching a lot of archery elk vids lately and it is astounding how little penetration everyone is getting. I got a few ideas why, rated from first to last

1). Broadhead design

2) Lite arrows

3) Arrows dulling inside the quiver during practice sessions

4) Poor tuned bow

There were rib cage shots no large bones involved on any if the hits I witnessed, and all shots were taken by adult men with high performance compound bows.

 

[Laelkhunter]

I try to watch any videos that include Elk hunting. I seem to notice just the opposite. Most of the archery shots are complete pass-throughs, and the hunter usually finds the arrow and examines it for the type of blood to indicate where he hit the Elk. I can't say that I remember more than one or two where the video shows the arrow sticking out of the Elk as it runs away. Of course it's possible that I am missing the ones you are referring to.
All of my Elk hunting is rifle hunting, so I have no actual experience with the bow hunting.

 

[5MilesBack]

Yep, I've seen a lot of the same over the last several years. I keep wondering if these TV hunters are shooting 50lb bows with large expandables or what.

 

[Beendare]

I think many guys come from success on Deer size critters and don't realize how tough these elk are. The hide alone is maybe 4x that of a deer....and if you have a head that chops vs slides in...an elk magnifies problems with blade sharpness, etc.

Then many guys only criteria for their setup is , ' BH's fly like FP's with little to no tuning'. If you don't have perfect arrow flight....you WILL get worse penetration. How many guys tune their fixed or Mech heads for perfect arrow flight? Not many, they screw them on and assume since they fly like their FP's, they are good. Anyone that has BH tuned knows this to be a fallacy.

I also think that guys look and see that every head works, so they don't factor in important variables specific to their setup.

After decades of seeing hundreds of animals die to an arrow with many different BH designs...my opinion is; Its hard to beat a well tuned fairly heavy arrow with a COC broadhead. There are many advantages to those heads besides just added penetration.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

To exemplify the negatives of a lack of penetration I should have added that several of the elk were not recovered until they were stiff...some were left overnight and found only by grid search. Who knows how many are lost because of the reasons above. Many penetration 'experts" preach a well tuned arrow is key to penetration, but that only adds a minimal amount of increase. Broadhead design can easily add 50 to 100% more penetration, possibly even more. 2 holes make for easier trailing.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

"The hide alone is maybe 4x that of a deer....and if you have a head that chops vs slides in...an elk magnifies problems with blade sharpness, "etc.

Exactly!!! Establishing initial penetration is one of the keys to penetration. Short heads with punch type tips are the worst desig nd (besides mechanicals). They stretch the hide to the point where the blades are compressed against the hide and pressing through instead of slicing through. That is the reason you hear a dull thud or thumping sound at impact. Heads that slice don't stretch the hide thus slice though and maintain needed momentum to carry throu the the animal and exit the opposite side. There is an exception. The Shuttle T head with concave blades is more keen up front and establishes penetration much easier than conventional designs. The only 2 arrows I saw on the videos that passed through were tipped with Shuttle T heads.

 

[westrnwild]

This is something i have noticed on TV myself. Granted i blame the high advertised expendables for this but there are in fact fixed blades that are just as bad now a days. I guess i came to this realization over time and i will admit i have never used expendables and dont believe in them because of the nights and days i have spend looking for animals of friends that have used them and made good shots. I will come clean and say i have spent similar amount of time on fixed blades tracking animals, however the result at the end is usually a poor placed shot, myself included.

But my major awakening on this was several years ago. I was in an elk camp filled with hunters in New Mexico. The hunt was public land semi guided or fully guided. Either way there was a camera crew and TV show there.. i talked to those guys several nights as they and I were usually the last hunters into camp at night. They said, and i wont say who they were.. that they are paid to use Rage Broadheads but have had such horrible luck with them that they use different heads and just tell people they use rage. They want better sponsorship, but the top companies pay well as they put it, better then the companies and products they prefer to use. They even complimented me on using better products and not falling into the advertising pockets. Either way the top seller isnt always the best product.

I am a Shuttle T fan and dont see a reason to switch. I like my two holes and or deep penetration. Flesh wounds dont kill elk in my experience.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

"I am a Shuttle T fan and dont see a reason to switch. I like my two holes and or deep penetration. Flesh wounds dont kill elk in my experience."

There is something about the concave heads. I use the Simmons which is cut on contact plus concave. I don't see anything that will penetrate with it and it is a huge head. I wouldn't want to shoot an elk with another elk standing behind it in fear I would kill it too.

 

[westrnwild]

"I am a Shuttle T fan and dont see a reason to switch. I like my two holes and or deep penetration. Flesh wounds dont kill elk in my experience."

There is something about the concave heads. I use the Simmons which is cut on contact plus concave. I don't see anything that will penetrate with it and it is a huge head. I wouldn't want to shoot an elk with another elk standing behind it in fear I would kill it too.

simmons shark might be the only head id switch to at this point outside a shuttle T

 

[jlrichesin]

I have been shooting the montec CS's for about 5 or 6 years. Fly good and seems to pass-through every time on elk and mule deer. I have heard good things about the shuttle T's as well.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

simmons shark might be the only head id switch to at this point outside a shuttle T

I want a few 125 Shuttle T's for my turkey arrows. They have 100 gr brass Incerts which would make them good for elk and I wouldn't have to change much to transition between elk and turkey. My plan is to elk hunt with the recurve anyway, and just take the compound as a backup bow. It was pretty incredible how the Simmons performed on both my elk so I will definitely stick with them out of my recurve.

 

[wapitibob]

I only need about 12", which will put my broadhead into the center of the lungs.

 

[mallard833]

Not sure if it someone mentioned it and I just missed it, but on top of what others have said, I would bet that people are taking longer shots than a handful of years ago. That has a large effect on arrow penetration.

 

[Beendare]

Most bow/arrow combos have more than enough energy to make every head on the market work- thats a given.

To my thinking the question is; What is going to max out my setup?

I can take shots with my compound, 500gr arrow and a VPA 150gr 2 blade that I just wouldn't consider with my recurve or my compound with a mech head. Try defending yourself against a charging hog with a big mech head...it might work, but i know the strong COC heads work- grin.



I find the extra penetration doesn't hurt, it always helps [unless there is another animal behind them!]..plus a lot of times the animal just stands there not knowing its hit those heads penetrate effortlessly.

 

[Beendare]

Heres an elk my buddy shot in NM, shot it when it turned instead of taking a point blank frontal and caught it as it spun [he won't do that again!]

I doubt a poor penetrating head would have worked in this case



I know, i know guys are going to say "bad shot". Well bad shots happen even with the best intentions.

The one hog i shot [buried to the fletch] in the forehead was wounded on a layup shot at 20 yds, it just turned as I release. Then i had to face it down in thick brush while it was in there bluff charging me.

 

[5MilesBack]

Not sure if it someone mentioned it and I just missed it, but on top of what others have said, I would bet that people are taking longer shots than a handful of years ago. That has a large effect on arrow penetration.

I guess you've never seen any of the Fred Bear hunting videos.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

I know of one fellow who got a complete pass on a bull moose at 60 yards. That was 25 years ago with a 220 fps bow. The broadhead??? Ziwikee Eskimo. It's all about design.

 

[Jeff Martin]

I know of one fellow who got a complete pass on a bull moose at 60 yards. That was 25 years ago with a 220 fps bow. The broadhead??? Ziwikee Eskimo. It's all about design.

That is why your concave design theory is wrong. Most guys pushing concave design are also trashing short steep angle broad heads in the same breath. Ironically, the concave design basically becomes perpendicular the ferrule at it widest point which "technically" is worst than a steep angle broad head. We fall into the trap of looks and never think about it. From an engineering point of view, it is the worse design - not an opinion but fact. You actually contact more hide/medium all at once.

Contrarily, Look at an axe design. Look at a German Kinetic and/or Solid broad head. In a mechanical, look at a grave digger. They use the design that is best. Convex heads never have medium contacting the ENTIRE blade edge simultaneously. if you want to see what I am talking about, go grind your axe into a flat edge (or your beloved concave) and see how much wood splitting you get done.

With all that said, I do not want to take use down a rabbit whole on engineering nonsense. The bottom line is simple. Less resistance and cut on contact, means more penetration. i.e.: 2 blade COC will penetrate better (of any design) over 3 and 4 blade heads. But, most of us have ample energy with modern tuned bows so we will still get complete pass-thru with many other designs like a 4 blade slick trick or other common heads.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

Jeff there are two things that you are missing in your assessment on concave heads. Theae two factors are what make the difference. Will explain further.

 

[5MilesBack]

That is why your concave design theory is wrong. Most guys pushing concave design are also trashing short steep angle broad heads in the same breath. Ironically, the concave design basically becomes perpendicular the ferrule at it widest point which "technically" is worst than a steep angle broad head. We fall into the trap of looks and never think about it. From an engineering point of view, it is the worse design - not an opinion but fact. You actually contact more hide/medium all at once.

If this is true.......then in actual real life testing, the Shuttle T should get "less" penetration into a foam target because there's resistance against that perpendicular blade the entire way (the target should slow it down faster). Yet with all my shooting into targets........the 125gr Shuttle T's "always" penetrate the furthest (even new unshot targets).......even against my 125gr Silverflames. Does the same through 3/4" plywood as well.

Yes I realize that foam doesn't adequately reflect penetration potential through hide, flesh, and bone.......but it should disprove your statement above.