Anyone using Hornady ELD Match for LR hunting?

[Clarktar]

I look forward to this exploration into the unknown. I can't figure out why they dropped the 4 from the 28 Nosler. 284 Nosler sounds much better.

 

[doverpack12]

I have several bad experiences with 7mm 180 Bergers from an STW on multiple different animals. I originally tried bergers because two close friends shoot 30 cal Bergers from 185 gr up to 215 gr. After seeing their performance results and seeing my results first hand I believe its in the construction of the 7mm bullets vs. 30 cal bullets. There is no other explanation I can come up with after seeing their results against mine and also hearing what they have done with their bullets. Anyone have the ability to cut bullets in half and take some measurements and post up pictures for the rest of us to see. I'll send some 7mm 180 Hunting VLDs so you and some 195s.

 

[Jordan Smith]

...I believe its in the construction of the 7mm bullets vs. 30 cal bullets...

What a novel idea. Unfortunately not everyone can connect those dots...

 

[Clarktar]

I have several bad experiences with 7mm 180 Bergers from an STW on multiple different animals. I originally tried bergers because two close friends shoot 30 cal Bergers from 185 gr up to 215 gr. After seeing their performance results and seeing my results first hand I believe its in the construction of the 7mm bullets vs. 30 cal bullets. There is no other explanation I can come up with after seeing their results against mine and also hearing what they have done with their bullets. Anyone have the ability to cut bullets in half and take some measurements and post up pictures for the rest of us to see. I'll send some 7mm 180 Hunting VLDs so you and some 195s.

@Sam Millard I think he did this with some 140 gr's not to long ago.

 

[Broz]

I have several bad experiences with 7mm 180 Bergers from an STW on multiple different animals. I originally tried bergers because two close friends shoot 30 cal Bergers from 185 gr up to 215 gr. After seeing their performance results and seeing my results first hand I believe its in the construction of the 7mm bullets vs. 30 cal bullets. There is no other explanation I can come up with after seeing their results against mine and also hearing what they have done with their bullets. Anyone have the ability to cut bullets in half and take some measurements and post up pictures for the rest of us to see. I'll send some 7mm 180 Hunting VLDs so you and some 195s.

This is exactly what I did after a season Management hunt (76 elk taken) comparing the 7mm 195, 180 VLD and 180 Hybrid against the 30 cal 215. The results were so obvious that the 215 killed so much better I was confused. I was extremely interested in comparing the 195 and 215. The only difference I found, other than weight and dia, was the 195 has a .300" hollow void in the tip and the 215 is .400"

It does not make sense, but it is very interesting how so many people with real world experience in this subject from both perspectives agree.

Jeff

 

[Dusty2426]

Shot a hog at 350 with the 147 out of 6.5 cm as he was running off buddy hit him with 300 wm and dropped him. Upon arrival had very poor penetration. And lots of surface damage. I like em but won’t hunt with them.

 

[maninthemaze]

I'm curious as well. Especially since I just completed load development on my 28 Nosler shooting the 195. I've yet to kill an animal with it. Hopefully this will be my year. I'm wondering if I should switch to the 180 ELDM. I could probably push it to 3200fps.

Maybe next year, I'll have a 300 or 338?

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[mt100gr.]

What a novel idea. Unfortunately not everyone can connect those dots...

Jordan, could you please connect the dots for me? I shoot both a 7mmRM and a 300wm. I am curious as to the difference in bullet construction that leads to what so many are seeing in the field. I prefer to carry the lighter 7, but when it comes down to it, the 300 appears to be very much worth the weight for hunting.

 

[mcseal2]

I shot a couple whitetail with the ELD-X 143gr bullet out of my 264WM this year. It's not the M version but might be of interest to someone here. The bullet leaves my barrel at 3240fps.

The first was the 2nd biggest bodied KS whitetail I have ever shot. Long story short I intercepted him on his way back to the draw where he lived and we spotted each other about the same time. I killed him on a broadside running shot at 150yds. The bullet hit him in the heaviest bones of his shoulder and fragmented. He dropped instantly and internal damage was immense. The bullet did not exit and I didn't find any pieces big enough to weigh. Impact velocity would have been around 3000fps so I wasn't to surprised it didn't hold together.

The second deer was a smaller doe facing me at 321yds downhill from my position. The bullet entered high in the front of her chest, exited low in the back of her chest, and broke a back leg on the way past. The entry wound was small and the exit about 2". That bullet performed more as expected. Impact velocity there was still 2774fps.

Not real long range, but real world experience with the bullets on game. As I shoot more game with it I'll add more results.

 

[danmayland]

I’ve debated this with my gunsmith. He hates the Berger bullets for hunting because he believes it is 100% the barrel/bullet combination. He, like me and other hunters has experienced the love hate relationship with the Bergers where as they seem to perform flawlessly in one rifle and horribly in the next. He argues that the difference in rifling of the barrel is the cause for the erratic bullet performance. He contends that the tooling of the barrel rifling has a significant effect on the berger bullets performance. I’ve had great success with the Berger Hybrids in my 7LRM with the exception of one animal where as the shot was taken on a running animal and ended up in the guts. Bullet performance in that instance was terrible but expected considering. I’m not sure I agree with my smith but he makes a very strong argument and he’s been long range hunting before long range hunting was cool!!


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[Jordan Smith]

Jordan, could you please connect the dots for me? I shoot both a 7mmRM and a 300wm. I am curious as to the difference in bullet construction that leads to what so many are seeing in the field. I prefer to carry the lighter 7, but when it comes down to it, the 300 appears to be very much worth the weight for hunting.

Sure. When it comes to killing, assuming ideal shot placement and sufficient penetration to reach vitals, what matters is the amount of fragmentation and the frontal surface area of the expanded bullet. Except for how it relates to the size of the expanded bullet, caliber means nothing, headstamp means nothing.

There are a number of factors that affect expanded bullet diameter, as well as fragmentation, even between two bullets of similar design. Take Berger bullets, for example. Different bullets within the lineup may have different jacket thickness, different lead-core alloy (less or more antimony, changing the hardness of the core), different length of void between the core and the meplat, different ogive profile which can influence expansion characteristics, etc. This has been expressely stated by some bullet manufacturers. Nosler, for example, designs the BT bullets in certain models to retain more weight than others. The 7mm 120gr was often used for silhouette, so they gave it a thicker jacket. The .338 200gr is another example where they gave it a thicker jacket for a higher jacket-to-core weight ratio, because guys were using it on elk. So it’s not as simple as saying that all BT bullets fragment easily, nor that 7mm BT’s are better or worse than .308 BT’s, since it matters WHICH 7mm BT and .308 BT you’re comparing. This applies to the PT, as well. Some PT’s are designed to retain 65% of their weight after expansion, and others are designed to retain closer to 85%.

Now if we allow the flexibility of using different types of bullets in different rifles, caliber makes even less difference, since bullets are typically fully expanded within the first inch or two after entering the hide, so the expanded bullet is what does the damage, not the original caliber-sized bullet. The Hornady IB is known to expand extremely wide. It’s not unrealistic to see a 7mm IB expand a lot wider than some .308 bullets, for example. So again, we have to consider the specific bullet when talking about killing effects.

I don’t have any industry insider info about specific design differences between 7mm Bergers compared to various .308 versions, but I can tell you this- if enough bullets are recovered and enough wound channels are analyzed, and a trend is observed of smaller starting caliber bullets expanding well and doing lots of damage, killing well in the process, and bullets larger in caliber are doing the same, then there is a measurable bullet design difference in the middle caliber that does not expand and perform the same as calibers on either side of it. Maybe the 7mm 195gr EOL bullet is longer and sleeker, and the long, pointy ogive doesn’t allow the bullet to expand and fragment as well as others, maybe the 180 Hybrid has a higher content of antimony in its core, I don’t know. At the end of the day, there are no magic calibers (or cursed ones, either). Individual bullet design is what matters, and wound channel comparisons don’t lie. This is why I don’t buy it when someone says that animals shot with .XXX caliber rifles always go further after the shot, despite the lungs/heart being totally destroyed.

Bullets matter more than headstamps (and calibers).

 

[mt100gr.]

Interesting. Thank you. And I must say, I have had good luck with my 7mm and 168 bergers.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Sure. When it comes to killing, assuming ideal shot placement and sufficient penetration to reach vitals, what matters is the amount of fragmentation and the frontal surface area of the expanded bullet. Except for how it relates to the size of the expanded bullet, caliber means nothing, headstamp means nothing.

There are a number of factors that affect expanded bullet diameter, as well as fragmentation, even between two bullets of similar design. Take Berger bullets, for example. Different bullets within the lineup may have different jacket thickness, different lead-core alloy (less or more antimony, changing the hardness of the core), different length of void between the core and the meplat, different ogive profile which can influence expansion characteristics, etc. This has been expressely stated by some bullet manufacturers. Nosler, for example, designs the BT bullets in certain models to retain more weight than others. The 7mm 120gr was often used for silhouette, so they gave it a thicker jacket. The .338 200gr is another example where they gave it a thicker jacket for a higher jacket-to-core weight ratio, because guys were using it on elk. So it’s not as simple as saying that all BT bullets fragment easily, nor that 7mm BT’s are better or worse than .308 BT’s, since it matters WHICH 7mm BT and .308 BT you’re comparing. This applies to the PT, as well. Some PT’s are designed to retain 65% of their weight after expansion, and others are designed to retain closer to 85%.

Now if we allow the flexibility of using different types of bullets in different rifles, caliber makes even less difference, since bullets are typically fully expanded within the first inch or two after entering the hide, so the expanded bullet is what does the damage, not the original caliber-sized bullet. The Hornady IB is known to expand extremely wide. It’s not unrealistic to see a 7mm IB expand a lot wider than some .308 bullets, for example. So again, we have to consider the specific bullet when talking about killing effects.

I don’t have any industry insider info about specific design differences between 7mm Bergers compared to various .308 versions, but I can tell you this- if enough bullets are recovered and enough wound channels are analyzed, and a trend is observed of smaller starting caliber bullets expanding well and doing lots of damage, killing well in the process, and bullets larger in caliber are doing the same, then there is a measurable bullet design difference in the middle caliber that does not expand and perform the same as calibers on either side of it. Maybe the 7mm 195gr EOL bullet is longer and sleeker, and the long, pointy ogive doesn’t allow the bullet to expand and fragment as well as others, maybe the 180 Hybrid has a higher content of antimony in its core, I don’t know. At the end of the day, there are no magic calibers (or cursed ones, either). Individual bullet design is what matters, and wound channel comparisons don’t lie. This is why I don’t buy it when someone says that animals shot with .XXX caliber rifles always go further after the shot, despite the lungs/heart being totally destroyed.

Bullets matter more than headstamps (and calibers).

So just for shits and giggles. You have a 28 Nolser and a shot at a bull elk presents itself at 950 yards, what bullet are you shooting?

 

[Broz]

Interesting opinions and food for thought. Upon testing the 7mm 195 gr Berger EOL MV of 2975 and the 215 Berger Hybrid MV of 3035 on dozens of actual elk kills. Same management hunt, often side by side same herd. I did ask Berger about the jacket thickness and core lead. The lead composition is the same and the jacket thickness is within a few thousands of an inch in all areas. Like I posted, the difference I found in construction other than the obvious 20 gr of weight and .024" of diameter, was the void in the nose back to the lead. The 195 being .300" and the 215 .400". Yet as so many have seen, with their own eyes, the bigger 30 cal will suck the life out of elk much faster than a 7 with several different bullets, with dozens of actual kills observed.

There were other bullets used, in both the 7mm and the 30, all cup core and of same design. Wound channels were examined as well as shot placement. What we learned was, as shot placement became less desirable, the faster dispatch of the 30 cal became even more evident. We referred to it as "the 30 will cover you butt better with marginal placement."

We should also note the results using the 300 gr cup core from a good 338 showed even more improvement in quicker dispatch.

So in the end, we can look at it on paper, scratch our heads, debate and discuss. But if we choose to ignore, or write off, actual repeated results from many elk kills, and many separate hunters real world experiences, well, we are only cheating ourselves. Dead elk don't lie.

I do not share these things for the sake of debate. I do it because I am lucky enough to have seen the real world results and wish to share it only for those that may gain better success from it. We all want clean kills.

For those who have spoken up about their actual results, both here and in PM's Thank you. I appreciate your experience. It can be baffling, but when we share we all benefit.

Jeff

PS EDIT: Those of you who know me, and know of what I do, know I can hunt with anything I wish in the line of custom rifles. I am blessed. Believe me when I say I use what works best. Why wouldn't I ? I built a pile of 7's and had a pile of barrels in my stash. I self proved all these results before I went back to the 30 and 338.

 

[Clarktar]

Interesting opinions and food for thought. Upon testing the 7mm 195 gr Berger EOL MV of 2975 and the 215 Berger Hybrid MV of 3035 on dozens of actual elk kills. Same management hunt, often side by side same herd. I did ask Berger about the jacket thickness and core lead. The lead composition is the same and the jacket thickness is within a few thousands of an inch in all areas. Like I posted, the difference I found in construction other than the obvious 20 gr of weight and .024" of diameter, was the void in the nose back to the lead. The 195 being .300" and the 215 .400". Yet as so many have seen, with their own eyes, the bigger 30 cal will suck the life out of elk much faster than a 7 with several different bullets, with dozens of actual kills observed.

There were other bullets used, in both the 7mm and the 30, all cup core and of same design. Wound channels were examined as well as shot placement. What we learned was, as shot placement became less desirable, the faster dispatch of the 30 cal became even more evident. We referred to it as "the 30 will cover you butt better with marginal placement."

We should also note the results using the 300 gr cup core from a good 338 showed even more improvement in quicker dispatch.

So in the end, we can look at it on paper, scratch our heads, debate and discuss. But if we choose to ignore, or write off, actual repeated results from many elk kills, and many separate hunters real world experiences, well, we are only cheating ourselves. Dead elk don't lie.

I do not share these things for the sake of debate. I do it because I am lucky enough to have seen the real world results and wish to share it only for those that may gain better success from it. We all want clean kills.

For those who have spoken up about their actual results, both here and in PM's Thank you. I appreciate your experience. It can be baffling, but when we share we all benefit.

Jeff

PS EDIT: Those of you who know me, and know of what I do, know I can hunt with anything I wish in the line of custom rifles. I am blessed. Believe me when I say I use what works best. Why wouldn't I ? I built a pile of 7's and had a pile of barrels in my stash. I self proved all these results before I went back to the 30 and 338.

Yes, but you are hamstrung by all tests being in Montana. Maybe those 7's work better in other habitats (states)...

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[Broz]

Yes, but you are hamstrung by all tests being in Montana. Maybe those 7's work better in other habitats (states)...

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This is true, they seem to work a lot better is areas that have very few elk.

Jeff

 

[maninthemaze]

So just for shits and giggles. You have a 28 Nolser and a shot at a bull elk presents itself at 950 yards, what bullet are you shooting?

I'm anxiously waiting for an answer to this. If you were stuck with a 28 Nosler, which bullet would you choose? Even at moderate distances?

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[Kotaman]

I'm anxiously waiting for an answer to this. If you were stuck with a 28 Nosler, which bullet would you choose? Even at moderate distances?

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I've killed a couple elk and a moose with a 168 Barnes LRX out of a 28 Nosler and the results were fantastic. Nothing "LR" about the shots though as the furthest was 200 yards.

 

[maninthemaze]

I've killed a couple elk and a moose with a 168 Barnes LRX out of a 28 Nosler and the results were fantastic. Nothing "LR" about the shots though as the furthest was 200 yards.

What muzzle velocity were you getting with a 168 grain bullet? I'm at 3080 with the 195 Berger.

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[Kotaman]

What muzzle velocity were you getting with a 168 grain bullet? I'm at 3080 with the 195 Berger.

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3175-3200 with 24” Proof barrel.