Any one have wind drift data on fixed vs mechanical

[Beendare]

Thinking back, every single one of my bow setups has been different…no constant.

Even just changing the fletch or BH makes a difference. I hunt on Kodiak about every other year- windy as heck- and in some windy conditions so I test my setup so I know how much to compensate.

I love stalking critters in the wind…it hides the sound of my size 14s…..grin

 

[Blockcaver]

I'm trying to guess how to properly measure resistance with a broadhead. Would it be the surface area? Surface of only 2 blades in a 3 since it's spinning? Or maybe the profile surface of the overall head. Meaning when the head spins, it creates an area that has more volume and overall area compared to a head not spinning. Maybe your engineer mind can explain better.

But to echo what @5MilesBack said, I too always carry multiple broadheads in my quiver. Usually 3 ironwill S125, 1 kudupoint and 2 sevr 1.5. I feel like this gives me the option of several choices for whatever need I have. I still have never needed all 3, but i did use two different heads on a bear last year. I like the mechanicals but man, the penetration and toughness of some 2 blades is crazy.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

I like simple....so an explanation of how I'd look at the "projected area" of the spinning fletching or broadhead:

I'd calculate the area of one of the vanes or one blade if a replaceable blade head. I'd make the very simple assumption that this area is only seeing the effect of a sidewind half the time as it flies toward the target.

Assume the projected area of one Blazer vane is around 1.14 sq-in from the following dimensions 0.57" tall x 2" long / 2. You divide by two since it "triangular" not a square vane.

For a 3-vane arrow fletched with Blazers, I'd assume that the projected area that is impacted by a perpendicular cross wind is:

3 vanes x 1.14 sq-in divided by 2 (rotating) = 1.7 sq-in of "projected" area for wind to push on.


I took a quick look a Zwickey Eskimo 2-blade broadhead as well:

The entire head is 2-1/2" long and 1-1/8" wide in a triangular shape (divide by 2) = 1.4 sq-in of head including the ferrule for both blades.

But due to rotation, the 1.4 sq-in head only is impacted by the cross-wind during half its rotation = 0.7 sq-in of blades for the wind to push on. I'm including the ferrule area that is constant when dividing by 2 which means the actual area the wind pushes on is a bit higher....I'd round the broadhead up to .9 sq-in of projected area that is impacted by the wind in this case.


Shaft projected area is impacted by a cross wind by multiplying the length x the shaft diameter, ignoring shape factors, roughness, etc:

4mm Carbon injection is 0.245" diameter x 29" shaft (includes nock) = 7.1 sq in of projected area.

 

[PurpleDriver]

maybe some of the smart folks will design an app with a arrow, vane, and BH database that could provide steady state ballistics. It’s done for bullets and wind effects a bullet dynamically too.

I get that archery is awesome for the simplicity/zen factor, but a lot of us like to geek out on this stuff. No app can ever replace practice and experienc, but it would be a great tool when building arrows.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

I’m in the multiple broadhead boat as well. I spent the entire summer last year going down the arrow/broadhead rabbit hole and what I have come up with that works best for me is three 1.5” sevrs and two Qad exodus or ironwill single bevel 125’s. I can get the exodus to tune closer to my sevrs out past 100 but you are going to have a lower point of impact at that distance with a fixed compared to a mechanical no matter what you are doing.
Back to wind drift though, I bought sets of 3 of 10 separate arrow shafts on Lancaster and a half dozen vector zmr’s last summer and built them all to the specs I would shoot that arrow. I have a 31” DL so they ranged from 484 grains with rip tkos and gold tip airstrikes to 5mm axis at 580 grains with a 75 grain hit up front. I shot shuttle t loks, qad exodus (regular and swept back blades), ozcut hurricanes, muzzy trocar HBs, day six evos, legend vented solids (loudest broadhead I’ve ever shot), RAD rivals, grim reaper micro hades, G5 Montecs, and annihilators. I shot one field point, one sevr, and one fixed blade per three arrow group. I shot each of them a minimum of 10 groups to eliminate any fliers on my part and I swapped which arrow was shooting a field point throughout the groups to negate any problems with one particular shaft. This was all over a five month period of every weather condition middle Tennessee has to offer from March to July.
If I stand on my back porch and shoot into my field, the house blocks almost all of the cross wind until my arrow is about 10 yards out of my bow so that negates any riser problems so I’m able to hold my bow still in heavy winds. I shot groups of three out to well past 100 with three vanes offset and left helical on every arrow then did four vanes in the same on them all. This was starting to flirt with asinine on how much time and money I was spending doing this so I stuck to only aae max stealth and 2.75 TAC drivers for all of this. I’ve got an entire summer’s worth of chicken scratch notes that an Egyptian hieroglyphics expert would have trouble translating but long story short, out of a Mathews v3x 33 I had wind drift from 24” at 100 with 6.5mm arrows, 4 vanes, and the larger fixed blade heads and that would minimize significantly when you go down to a 4mm arrow with 3 vanes and a mechanical. Down to amounts that I wasn’t sure if it was me shooting or the wind gusts with the micro diameter arrows and mechanicals. I could not tell a major difference between 4mm and 5mm arrows on wind drift either. The biggest thing was fixed versus mechanicals. What I ended up settling on was 3 sevrs with 3 left helical max stealth vanes and 2 fixed blades with 4 left helical max stealths on a 4mm arrow. I had about a 6” drop at 100 yards between 3 and 4 vane arrows with an additional 3” or so going fixed blade to mechanical so when I shoot a mechanical then a fixed blade I average a 9” drop at 100 yards between the two configurations. At 40 yards I’m not good enough to tell a large enough difference between the two when I’m shooting a well executed shot. Where it does make a big difference is when I start purposefully torquing my grip during testing to simulate a less than ideally executed shot. I noticed a significant difference in forgiveness with 4 vanes on the fixed blades. The whole reason I have the fixed blades is for elk hunting in thicker cover so I’m willing to make that sacrifice on the drop at distance for the forgiveness in that situation.

This ended up a bit longer than I intended just to say I like to run both.. and this is all redneck bro science in my backyard so take it with a grain of salt.

By the way I ran left helical because my bow clocks that way.. ALSO I don’t want to trash any brands but there was a particular hybrid broadhead that I shot during all of this that has to be the worst designed broadhead I’ve ever shot for any form of longevity. That was the only one I was not able to test thoroughly with the rest. Of the three pack, I did not have a single one that I was able to shoot more than three times without it deploying the mechanical blades midflight. That makes for an interesting arrow flight.

 

[CMF]

I’m in the multiple broadhead boat as well. I spent the entire summer last year going down the arrow/broadhead rabbit hole and what I have come up with that works best for me is three 1.5” sevrs and two Qad exodus or ironwill single bevel 125’s. I can get the exodus to tune closer to my sevrs out past 100 but you are going to have a lower point of impact at that distance with a fixed compared to a mechanical no matter what you are doing.
Back to wind drift though, I bought sets of 3 of 10 separate arrow shafts on Lancaster and a half dozen vector zmr’s last summer and built them all to the specs I would shoot that arrow. I have a 31” DL so they ranged from 484 grains with rip tkos and gold tip airstrikes to 5mm axis at 580 grains with a 75 grain hit up front. I shot shuttle t loks, qad exodus (regular and swept back blades), ozcut hurricanes, muzzy trocar HBs, day six evos, legend vented solids (loudest broadhead I’ve ever shot), RAD rivals, grim reaper micro hades, G5 Montecs, and annihilators. I shot one field point, one sevr, and one fixed blade per three arrow group. I shot each of them a minimum of 10 groups to eliminate any fliers on my part and I swapped which arrow was shooting a field point throughout the groups to negate any problems with one particular shaft. This was all over a five month period of every weather condition middle Tennessee has to offer from March to July.
If I stand on my back porch and shoot into my field, the house blocks almost all of the cross wind until my arrow is about 10 yards out of my bow so that negates any riser problems so I’m able to hold my bow still in heavy winds. I shot groups of three out to well past 100 with three vanes offset and left helical on every arrow then did four vanes in the same on them all. This was starting to flirt with asinine on how much time and money I was spending doing this so I stuck to only aae max stealth and 2.75 TAC drivers for all of this. I’ve got an entire summer’s worth of chicken scratch notes that an Egyptian hieroglyphics expert would have trouble translating but long story short, out of a Mathews v3x 33 I had wind drift from 24” at 100 with 6.5mm arrows, 4 vanes, and the larger fixed blade heads and that would minimize significantly when you go down to a 4mm arrow with 3 vanes and a mechanical. Down to amounts that I wasn’t sure if it was me shooting or the wind gusts with the micro diameter arrows and mechanicals. I could not tell a major difference between 4mm and 5mm arrows on wind drift either. The biggest thing was fixed versus mechanicals. What I ended up settling on was 3 sevrs with 3 left helical max stealth vanes and 2 fixed blades with 4 left helical max stealths on a 4mm arrow. I had about a 6” drop at 100 yards between 3 and 4 vane arrows with an additional 3” or so going fixed blade to mechanical so when I shoot a mechanical then a fixed blade I average a 9” drop at 100 yards between the two configurations. At 40 yards I’m not good enough to tell a large enough difference between the two when I’m shooting a well executed shot. Where it does make a big difference is when I start purposefully torquing my grip during testing to simulate a less than ideally executed shot. I noticed a significant difference in forgiveness with 4 vanes on the fixed blades. The whole reason I have the fixed blades is for elk hunting in thicker cover so I’m willing to make that sacrifice on the drop at distance for the forgiveness in that situation.

This ended up a bit longer than I intended just to say I like to run both.. and this is all redneck bro science in my backyard so take it with a grain of salt.

By the way I ran left helical because my bow clocks that way.. ALSO I don’t want to trash any brands but there was a particular hybrid broadhead that I shot during all of this that has to be the worst designed broadhead I’ve ever shot for any form of longevity. That was the only one I was not able to test thoroughly with the rest. Of the three pack, I did not have a single one that I was able to shoot more than three times without it deploying the mechanical blades midflight. That makes for an interesting arrow flight.

Good stuff. I didn't think about fixed having a lower poi at a distance. I assume this is due to drag since your weight was the same?
So assuming you use the same arrow with both fixed and mech, there would be a "3 difference between them?
what kind of group size difference did you see with the fixed head and the 3 vs 4 fletch at 100yds?

 

[sndmn11]

I would bet arrow spin has a whole lot to do with it too. I'd even throw out the likely hood it might be at the top of the list knowing that baseball carry is drastically dependent on spin rate over velocity, and the same for a football. The latter is the most analogous.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

Good stuff. I didn't think about fixed having a lower poi at a distance. I assume this is due to drag since your weight was the same?
So assuming you use the same arrow with both fixed and mech, there would be a "3 difference between them?
what kind of group size difference did you see with the fixed head and the 3 vs 4 fletch at 100yds?

I believe so on the drag. As @sndmn11 is saying, I think the speed the arrow is spinning is paramount to the equation.. the more surface area that is causing drag, the slower it’s going to spin, which is in turn robbing energy and that means lower impact point. Because if you take the 7-9 grains one of those vanes weigh and you just add that weight to a 3 vaned arrow shaft, you aren’t going to get a 6” drop at 100.
On a calm day, I’m shooting 3-5” groups at that distance with my current setup but if you mixed an arrow with the same configuration in there that weighed 7 grains more, there is absolutely zero chance I’d ever be able to tell you which one is heavier. Yet you can slap another vane on there that weighs that and I’m hitting 6” low. So to me that means more drag means lower poi.

On the 3” lower impact point between mechanic and fixed with the same vane setup, that’s specifically with sevrs and qad exodus/ironwill single bevels. That fluctuated a bit depending on what fixed blade I was shooting but that’s the average for me with the fixed blades that I ended up landing on.

I did not see a major difference at all in the three to four vane groups on well executed shots out to 70 but after that you could start telling a big difference. For me personally, I can get the QAD to fly damn near perfectly out to any distance but I get a bit wonky with the iron wills past 80. They tend to start veering off to the right for me every time with a three vane arrow. Slap four on there and I’m back in business with the iron wills. The huge difference was in less than ideal shot situations. There is almost zero room for error on my shot with three vanes and a fixed head past 80. If I’m sucking wind and don’t execute well then my groups would get much wider with three than four. But at the same time, I’d get significantly more wind drift with four and a fixed blade.

I think no matter what you do you are going to have to make sacrifices in certain situations unless you run both in your quiver… might over complicate things a bit on the surface but all I do is look at which arrows are a bit shorter and grab one of those if I’m shooting in cover. If I’m taking a longer, more open shot then 99 times out of 100 I have time to take my quiver off and grab a sevr.

 

[thedutchtouch]

This is another one of those threads that gets me thinking... And then there's a lot to think about and a lot of unknown so I always come back to I just need to shoot my bow more in all types of conditions and find my own "dataset". OP I think this is the most functional advice for you as well, just pick a few heads and go shoot in the wind, and not in the wind, and then shoot some more in the varying wind. I think there's a lot more variables with arrows and archery than there is with bullets and rifles.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

This is another one of those threads that gets me thinking... And then there's a lot to think about and a lot of unknown so I always come back to I just need to shoot my bow more in all types of conditions and find my own "dataset". OP I think this is the most functional advice for you as well, just pick a few heads and go shoot in the wind, and not in the wind, and then shoot some more in the varying wind. I think there's a lot more variables with arrows and archery than there is with bullets and rifles.

100% agree with you. There’s a lot more variables and if you change any one of them then you’re going to have major differences. Confidence kills! Grab some heads and let them fly. Whole lot better to mess with it now than wondering in September if you’ve got the “right” broadhead on your arrow.

 

[DanimalW]

So for you guys that carry both, my question is why? If you have the confidence in a mechanical at long range, how can you possibly not have confidence in at closer ranges when your arrow is on a straighter, faster, and more accurate path?

 

[mikeafeagin22]

So for you guys that carry both, my question is why? If you have the confidence in a mechanical at long range, how can you possibly not have confidence in at closer ranges when your arrow is on a straighter, faster, and more accurate path?

Short answer for me is brush. In most areas I hunt, I’m either throwing out some location bugles only or I’m predominately glassing. I’m shooting a mechanical in almost every situation but if I get lucky and find a rut fest off in a beetle kill hell hole then I’m diving in there after them. I’d rather have a brush cutter in the quiver just in case

 

[MattB]

So for you guys that carry both, my question is why? If you have the confidence in a mechanical at long range, how can you possibly not have confidence in at closer ranges when your arrow is on a straighter, faster, and more accurate path?

You need to keep in mind that many people on internet chat boards way overthink things, and many have little to no actual field experience to base their equipment decisions on.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

You need to keep in mind that many people on internet chat boards way overthink things, and many have little to no actual field experience to base their equipment decisions on.

Nice contribution to the conversation!

 

[5MilesBack]

So for you guys that carry both, my question is why? If you have the confidence in a mechanical at long range, how can you possibly not have confidence in at closer ranges when your arrow is on a straighter, faster, and more accurate path?

Shot angles, deflections......a couple things to ponder.

Several years ago I shot a bull, but the arrow hit a very small dangling branch (like pencil lead thick) with leaves before it hit the bull. It deflected that arrow way off the aim point. That was with an over the top 3-blade head, and I believe that those over the top blades can get grabby......especially on a small spindly end of branch with leaves. To this day I still wonder if a fixed blade would have just cut right through the leaves and tiny branch material to hit the aim point. Those leaves were above my aim point and not even in my conscious field of view to the vitals, but trajectory is a real thing with a bow and arrow. I rarely see them before, but always see them after. That's an achilles heel for me.

Also, a couple years ago I wanted to use a mechanical on a CO moose. Most everyone said "no". I had both in the quiver and shot him first with my Exodus on a quartering away shot. He went and laid down but then got back up several seconds later. So I nocked the mechanical arrow (GR Fatal Steel) and shot him broadside at 38 yards. The 520gr arrow going 285fps buried almost to the fletches, and that bull didn't take another step.

So ya, I have confidence in my mechanicals as long as there are no branches/leaves in the equation, and I have a good shot angle. But when I get tunnel vision and see clear vitals, I don't even see the leaves or branches. And I hunt solo a lot, so the odds for a bull coming in with a frontal type shot are greater, and I'd much rather be using a fixed for those type shots.

 

[MattB]

Nice contribution to the conversation!

In my 30 years of bowhunting, I've shot and hunted in the wind enough to understand that the hard part of executing good shots is limiting bow movement and not arrow drift. And when there isn't enough wind to cause bow movement, there isn't enough wind to really worry about arrow drift at archery ranges. And let's be honest, no one here is carrying a Kestrel and cut sheet to help them calculate their wind holds in the field. So despite any "data" they have amassed, they are making guesses. Some are more informed guesses than others, but they are still guesses.

While it is certainly beneficial to practice in the wind and know how your arrow will react to wind over distance, my experience is that guys who are seeking arrow drift "data" from other people - who may have very different arrow characteristics - aren't solving for the most important variable because they likely don't understand the practical impact of wind on the shot.

A similar analysis can be made for people who think that different broadhead types work significantly better in brush than others.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

Shot angles, deflections......a couple things to ponder.

Several years ago I shot a bull, but the arrow hit a very small dangling branch (like pencil lead thick) with leaves before it hit the bull. It deflected that arrow way off the aim point. That was with an over the top 3-blade head, and I believe that those over the top blades can get grabby......especially on a small spindly end of branch with leaves. To this day I still wonder if a fixed blade would have just cut right through the leaves and tiny branch material to hit the aim point. Those leaves were above my aim point and not even in my conscious field of view to the vitals, but trajectory is a real thing with a bow and arrow. I rarely see them before, but always see them after. That's an achilles heel for me.

Also, a couple years ago I wanted to use a mechanical on a CO moose. Most everyone said "no". I had both in the quiver and shot him first with my Exodus on a quartering away shot. He went and laid down but then got back up several seconds later. So I nocked the mechanical arrow (GR Fatal Steel) and shot him broadside at 38 yards. The 520gr arrow going 285fps buried almost to the fletches, and that bull didn't take another step.

So ya, I have confidence in my mechanicals as long as there are no branches/leaves in the equation, and I have a good shot angle. But when I get tunnel vision and see clear vitals, I don't even see the leaves or branches. And I hunt solo a lot, so the odds for a bull coming in with a frontal type shot are greater, and I'd much rather be using a fixed for those type shots.

I had a very similar experience a few years ago on day 7 of a 5 day elk hunt. Got to 34 yards on a great bull raking a tree in the middle of some of the worst beetle kill deadfall I’ve ever experienced. It was later in the afternoon so visibility was less than perfect and I just didn’t see the branch at all. I was so zoned in on the bull that I didn’t think to look above his body line.. saw clear vitals and let one go. Hit a branch halfway there that sent it flying well over his back. I had drank the kool aid on the heavy arrow trend that summer and hadn’t paid enough attention to my trajectory at shorter distances and it cost me on my last chance of the season.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

In my 30 years of bowhunting, I've shot and hunted in the wind enough to understand that the hard part of executing good shots is limiting bow movement and not arrow drift. And when there isn't enough wind to cause bow movement, there isn't enough wind to really worry about arrow drift at archery ranges. And let's be honest, no one here is carrying a Kestrel and cut sheet to help them calculate their wind holds in the field. So despite any "data" they have amassed, they are making guesses. Some are more informed guesses than others, but they are still guesses.

While it is certainly beneficial to practice in the wind and know how your arrow will react to wind over distance, my experience is that guys who are seeking arrow drift "data" from other people - who may have very different arrow characteristics - aren't solving for the most important variable because they likely don't understand the practical impact of wind on the shot.

A similar analysis can be made for people who think that different broadhead types work significantly better in brush than others.

Well since we are drawing a lot of assumptions now, I’m going to assume that you have never spot and stalked antelope with your bow or hunted deer in breaks country because there is no way you could possibly say “if there isn’t enough wind to cause bow movement then there isn’t enough to cause arrow drift”. I have had numerous shot situations in both of the above mentioned type hunts where I was in a cut protected from the wind shooting at an animal that was either across the coulee or out in the open where the arrow is traveling a significant part of the total distance being affected by the wind. No one is saying anything about setting up a kestrel in the field. We are talking about minimizing wind drift.

It’s also pretty safe to say you’ve never hunted elk in northern Idaho or anywhere else thick and nasty if you are going to say that all broadheads react the same way if they hit something. That’s absolutely ridiculous.

 

[MattB]

Well since we are drawing a lot of assumptions now, I’m going to assume that you have never spot and stalked antelope with your bow or hunted deer in breaks country because there is no way you could possibly say “if there isn’t enough wind to cause bow movement then there isn’t enough to cause arrow drift”. I have had numerous shot situations in both of the above mentioned type hunts where I was in a cut protected from the wind shooting at an animal that was either across the coulee or out in the open where the arrow is traveling a significant part of the total distance being affected by the wind. No one is saying anything about setting up a kestrel in the field. We are talking about minimizing wind drift.

It’s also pretty safe to say you’ve never hunted elk in northern Idaho or anywhere else thick and nasty if you are going to say that all broadheads react the same way if they hit something. That’s absolutely ridiculous.

I have hunted a ton in the wind and only have been in 2 situations I can remember where I was out of the wind shooting at animals in the wind.

In the numerous situations you have been in, what was your methodology for determining how to hold for the wind and how much did you have to hold?

And I didn’t say all broadhead react the same way if they hit something - but you know that. I have had deflections off of minor obstructions with a variety of BH styles and have formed an opinion that no BH works “better enough” that I can rely on that feature to take shots where I think my arrow is going to need to cut through brush to hit my aiming point. And for that reason I have passed on shots at some nice animals rather than just hoping.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

I have hunted a ton in the wind and only have been in 2 situations I can remember where I was out of the wind shooting at animals in the wind.

In the numerous situations you have been in, what was your methodology for determining how to hold for the wind and how much did you have to hold?

And I didn’t say all broadhead react the same way if they hit something - but you know that. I have had deflections off of minor obstructions with a variety of BH styles and have formed an opinion that no BH works “better enough” that I can rely on that feature to take shots where I think my arrow is going to need to cut through brush to hit my aiming point. And for that reason I have passed on shots at some nice animals rather than just hoping.

I can’t recall a single trip that I’ve hunted antelope where I haven’t planned multiple stalks per day around terrain breaks with blocking the wind in mind. And my methodology is to hold left or right of my preferred impact point depending upon distance and conditions.
You keep commenting in a condescending tone about all of this for some reason that I’m apparently not understanding. You specifically referenced what I’m saying in a passive aggressive manner rather than just coming out and saying you think I’m wrong yet you are just taking a small piece of it and running with that. We aren’t talking about slapping a broadhead on and shooting bad shots through cover on purpose. The whole thing was and still is about mitigating the overall scope of error in the process. No one wants to make a mistake and wound an animal so it’s about trying to cover as many variables as possible to reduce that risk.
I feel like at this point you are just trying to argue for the sake of it. If you’d like to actually have a discussion about it rather than a pissing match then I’d love to talk. You have 30 years of bowhunting experience and I have 23. I’m sure there is quite a bit more good that could come out of the discussion than what this is spiraling into for no reason at all.

 

[Marble]

So for you guys that carry both, my question is why? If you have the confidence in a mechanical at long range, how can you possibly not have confidence in at closer ranges when your arrow is on a straighter, faster, and more accurate path?

My answer I simple to me...

The mechanical is more accurate at a distance. A longer shot, 60+ yards, i would probably pick my mechanical. Thinking of a broadside shot, calm animal and in relatively calm...

Ironwill, I would prefer to use this one on elk. Super tough, crazy sharp and flies really good.

Kudu, I use this one on other game, pretty much everything but elk. This is because of cost. It shoots really well, is nearly as tough as the IW but is maybe half the cost.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk