Antler Point Restriction

[king402]

So I've been listening to a lot of mule deer podcast lately, including Robby's great conversations with some very intelligent biologist and antler point restriction (APR) has been brought up an discussed in many that I've listened to. It appears to me that the idea is not very well received and the consensus is that is doesn't make enough of a difference to implement an APR. I know a lot of hunters who prefer to hunt mature bucks and advocate for it but those hunters are usually outvoted by the larger population of hunters who prefer quantity vs quality. Does anyone know if a hybrid system has been considered by any wildlife agencies in any western states? Would it be possible to cater to both groups? Say something like every 5 years there could be an APR in place? Make it on years that it would be easier to remember.......2025, 2030, 2035, etc. That way there would be an age class of bucks every 5 years that could potentially grow larger antlers and have a better chance of making it to maturity. Maybe I'm just dreaming but it seems like there should be a way to appease both the quantity demand and the quality demand. Thoughts?

 

[HiMtnHntr]

Wyoming does it in certain areas on and off. Lots of different opinions on it. I think the popular opinion is they are ok if you don’t do it every year.

 

[mt terry d]

Why not make it self-limiting?

For instance you're only allowed one 20" or greater 4 point every 3 or 4 years?

Or one buck every 2 or 3 years?

 

[MuleyFever]

The issue with an APR is that it puts more pressure on the mature deer in hopes of saving some younger deer that may or may not even make it to maturity or have the ability to ever develop into a trophy class animal. It also puts a lot of pressure on the younger deer that actually meet the APR but are really the ones with the most potential to grow big.

 

[willfrye027]

APRs sound nice on the surface. I am a mule deer nut..personally I would prefer if everyone else in the unit was shooting the first forky they saw. That segment of the buck population is the largest, already has extremely high (50%ish) mortality, and will be there again the next year.

If everyone is hunting for a 4pt, that smaller segment of the population will be hunted hard, there is more pressure on the landscape (takes people more time to tag out), and less likely that a 3 year old 4pt makes it to 5 year old.

The more I listen to biologists on the Rokcast and other podcasts..the more I think we should advocate for meat hunting and quit stigmatizing guys who want to come home with a deer. Forkies are the renewable resource…it takes a lot more to grow a young 4pt than it does a forked horn.

 

[S.Clancy]

APRs sound nice on the surface. I am a mule deer nut..personally I would prefer if everyone else in the unit was shooting the first forky they saw. That segment of the buck population is the largest, already has extremely high (50%ish) mortality, and will be there again the next year.

If everyone is hunting for a 4pt, that smaller segment of the population will be hunted hard, there is more pressure on the landscape (takes people more time to tag out), and less likely that a 3 year old 4pt makes it to 5 year old.

The more I listen to biologists on the Rokcast and other podcasts..the more I think we should advocate for meat hunting and quit stigmatizing guys who want to come home with a deer. Forkies are the renewable resource…it takes a lot more to grow a young 4pt than it does a forked horn.

Forkies (age 1.5) DO NOT have extremely high mortality outside of hunting. Age-0 (fawns) have mortality approximately what you are providing, ~50%.

The way to get more big bucks is get those forkies to survive, because there is so many of them. Antler point restrictions don't really do that, cause they just all get shot the next year, or year 3.

Escapement is really, really hard to achieve. You either have to do it by limiting weapon/season, or LE. Sometimes areas can be rough enough to do it with topography or distance.

The problem with LE is once your population stops growing really fast (ie age class size starts decreasing) you have less bucks as a factor of math.

HD 270 in MT is perfect example. That unit basically had a perfect storm for big bucks. It went LE in the late 90's. Early 2000's most of that area burned, creating awesome deer habitat. Fawn production went through the roof (50% bucks) for several years, habitat was not limiting, and people killed some absolute toads. But once the population stabilized (lower recruitment from Age-0, less deer per age class), the habitat became limiting (a function of a population being at carrying capacity and natural succession of plants) you get less bucks total and those bucks have much less excess nutrition. Today, crank in some bad droughts and pressure from increased elk, and that unit is a shadow of its former self.

 

[willfrye027]

Forkies (age 1.5) DO NOT have extremely high mortality outside of hunting. Age-0 (fawns) have mortality approximately what you are providing, ~50%.

The way to get more big bucks is get those forkies to survive, because there is so many of them. Antler point restrictions don't really do that, cause they just all get shot the next year, or year 3.

Escapement is really, really hard to achieve. You either have to do it by limiting weapon/season, or LE. Sometimes areas can be rough enough to do it with topography or distance.

The problem with LE is once your population stops growing really fast (ie age class size starts decreasing) you have less bucks as a factor of math.

HD 270 in MT is perfect example. That unit basically had a perfect storm for big bucks. It went LE in the late 90's. Early 2000's most of that area burned, creating awesome deer habitat. Fawn production went through the roof (50% bucks) for several years, habitat was not limiting, and people killed some absolute toads. But once the population stabilized (lower recruitment from Age-0, less deer per age class), the habitat became limiting (a function of a population being at carrying capacity and natural succession of plants) you get less bucks total and those bucks have much less excess nutrition. Today, crank in some bad droughts and pressure from increased elk, and that unit is a shadow of its former self.

There is data out of Utah to suggest that yearling bucks (forkies) DO have extremely high mortality. Separate from fawn mortality. I’ll try to find it and post it here.

Edit: I can’t find where I read or heard this, will keep looking because I think it’s an important point.

 

[ddowning]

The issue with an APR is that it puts more pressure on the mature deer in hopes of saving some younger deer that may or may not even make it to maturity or have the ability to ever develop into a trophy class animal. It also puts a lot of pressure on the younger deer that actually meet the APR but are really the ones with the most potential to grow big.

I don't know much about Mule deer, but this is how I see apr with whitetails. I passed a 3.5 year old dear last year that was a 6x5 and a mid 150s low 160s deer. He has the potential to be very bid, but with a 4 pt per side rule I would have to let the 5.5 year old 3x4 cull buck die of old age.

 

[CorbLand]

APRs sound nice on the surface. I am a mule deer nut..personally I would prefer if everyone else in the unit was shooting the first forky they saw. That segment of the buck population is the largest, already has extremely high (50%ish) mortality, and will be there again the next year.

If everyone is hunting for a 4pt, that smaller segment of the population will be hunted hard, there is more pressure on the landscape (takes people more time to tag out), and less likely that a 3 year old 4pt makes it to 5 year old.

The more I listen to biologists on the Rokcast and other podcasts..the more I think we should advocate for meat hunting and quit stigmatizing guys who want to come home with a deer. Forkies are the renewable resource…it takes a lot more to grow a young 4pt than it does a forked horn.

Just close the thread right here.

 

[S.Clancy]

There is data out of Utah to suggest that yearling bucks (forkies) DO have extremely high mortality. Separate from fawn mortality. I’ll try to find it and post it here.

Yea, if there is data that would be interesting, mostly because once a doe recruits from a fawn to yearling her annual mortality probability is constant throughout her life.

 

[idelkslayer]

APRs sound nice on the surface. I am a mule deer nut..personally I would prefer if everyone else in the unit was shooting the first forky they saw. That segment of the buck population is the largest, already has extremely high (50%ish) mortality, and will be there again the next year.

If everyone is hunting for a 4pt, that smaller segment of the population will be hunted hard, there is more pressure on the landscape (takes people more time to tag out), and less likely that a 3 year old 4pt makes it to 5 year old.

The more I listen to biologists on the Rokcast and other podcasts..the more I think we should advocate for meat hunting and quit stigmatizing guys who want to come home with a deer. Forkies are the renewable resource…it takes a lot more to grow a young 4pt than it does a forked horn.

I couldn't agree more. It's baffling that so many hunters can't wrap their minds around this.

 

[king402]

The issue with an APR is that it puts more pressure on the mature deer in hopes of saving some younger deer that may or may not even make it to maturity or have the ability to ever develop into a trophy class animal. It also puts a lot of pressure on the younger deer that actually meet the APR but are really the ones with the most potential to grow big.

Great point. That's a good way at looking at it. Thanks.

 

[king402]

APRs sound nice on the surface. I am a mule deer nut..personally I would prefer if everyone else in the unit was shooting the first forky they saw. That segment of the buck population is the largest, already has extremely high (50%ish) mortality, and will be there again the next year.

If everyone is hunting for a 4pt, that smaller segment of the population will be hunted hard, there is more pressure on the landscape (takes people more time to tag out), and less likely that a 3 year old 4pt makes it to 5 year old.

The more I listen to biologists on the Rokcast and other podcasts..the more I think we should advocate for meat hunting and quit stigmatizing guys who want to come home with a deer. Forkies are the renewable resource…it takes a lot more to grow a young 4pt than it does a forked horn.

Very good insights. Thanks. Helps me look at it from a different view. I think my mind has been changed a bit now. I think there is some change happening slowly in the mindset of hunters as well to let the yearlings live and pass on them. Time will tell I guess. Thanks for your response!

 

[Scottf270]

Apr's are one of the poorest methods of deer management ever conceived.
The problems are the game departments won't give up revenue and make hard choices such as cutting tags, limiting antlerless tags etc.

The other issue is most hunters can't stay off the trigger because they can't stand going home empty handed.

There are a couple facts that are irrefutable:

1. You don't harvest timber or crops till they are mature.
2. You can't grow bigger bucks by killing small ones.
3. Killing breeding females will not help the herd grow.

 

[CorbLand]

Apr's are one of the poorest methods of deer management ever conceived.
The problems are the game departments won't give up revenue and make hard choices such as cutting tags, limiting antlerless tags etc.

The other issue is most hunters can't stay off the trigger because they can't stand going home empty handed.

There are a couple facts that are irrefutable:

1. You don't harvest timber or crops till they are mature.
2. You can't grow bigger bucks by killing small ones.
3. Killing breeding females will not help the herd grow.

The funny thing is that most western states have made that "hard choice" and have been doing it for 20-40 years and people are still calling for APRs and/or further cuts.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

We have a 4 point rule where my place in MO is. Since they instituted that, our hunting has not improved, in fact, it has gone down. This last season, and several before it, I seen close to 20 bucks, none of them legal with one a maybe. Not a fan. We kill a legal buck maybe every 3 years or so now. And nothing huge either. 120-130 are good bucks for us. The rule was generated by the outfitters complaining. I have seen zero increase in the quality of the bucks.

 

[king402]

Interesting, thanks for the reply. My opinion is changing with all the responses. Good to have actual hunter experience with this and to see what your experience has been.

 

[king402]

Apr's are one of the poorest methods of deer management ever conceived.
The problems are the game departments won't give up revenue and make hard choices such as cutting tags, limiting antlerless tags etc.

The other issue is most hunters can't stay off the trigger because they can't stand going home empty handed.

There are a couple facts that are irrefutable:

1. You don't harvest timber or crops till they are mature.
2. You can't grow bigger bucks by killing small ones.
3. Killing breeding females will not help the herd grow.

Issuing doe tags is my biggest complaint. I don't think they should be issued at all with the decline in our western herds. Really good example you posted there in #1. I like all 3!

 

[willfrye027]

Interesting, thanks for the reply. My opinion is changing with all the responses. Good to have actual hunter experience with this and to see what your experience has been.

I think we all want good hunting and to come across big bucks. Outside of very limited quotas, sometimes the stars align and we have a great run of years where there are more on offer. There’s been great years in the Wyoming range, most of colorado, Utah, etc. but they don’t last forever. And I also do not think they are gone forever.

I just don’t believe there is some magic legislation that can artificially achieve those goals..it’s too complex and Mother Nature is ultimately steering the ship with providing good conditions for fawn recruitment and population growth.

I think we as humans need to do everything we can to optimize habitat so that we can capitalize on good environmental conditions..tinkering with buck harvest might help in some small ways year to year when it comes to seeing big deer..but we want and need big healthy populations where opportunity and quality are both there.

 

[Hnthrdr]

APRs sound nice on the surface. I am a mule deer nut..personally I would prefer if everyone else in the unit was shooting the first forky they saw. That segment of the buck population is the largest, already has extremely high (50%ish) mortality, and will be there again the next year.

If everyone is hunting for a 4pt, that smaller segment of the population will be hunted hard, there is more pressure on the landscape (takes people more time to tag out), and less likely that a 3 year old 4pt makes it to 5 year old.

The more I listen to biologists on the Rokcast and other podcasts..the more I think we should advocate for meat hunting and quit stigmatizing guys who want to come home with a deer. Forkies are the renewable resource…it takes a lot more to grow a young 4pt than it does a forked horn.

Great post! I tend to be a little “elitest” when it comes to deer horns, which ironically I will arrow the first bull that gives me a shot… I want all the bucks to get old and regal, but if everyone was hunting like that, there would be way more pressure on them and it would probably be as busy on the last day of the hunt as the first. I agree gotta let folks shoot whatever they want and then clear out. good way of looking at it.