And now Walmart...

[bertha]

Yet read the full news, but it looks like it's a very interesting news

 

[ODB]

Ok, this is kind of all over the place, so I'm going to try to address it point by point.

Who is selling the gun does not impact society's ability to do a good job of stemming "the loss of moral behavior", or affect morality in any measurable way. I guess I can see how you could conflate loss or morality and self-control, but I still don't see where Walmart selling guns fits with any of that. I'm really lost on the marketization thing, guns have never been price fixed, or supported that I'm aware of, they have always been subject to market forces. As for people's relating to guns, people have always seen different things in guns according to the uses they have for them, that isn't new.

As for your nest paragraph...I guess there are some crazy fringe militia types who think they might be preparing for some sort of armed conflict, but I think they make up such a small part of the gun buying public as to not even warrant discussion. I know a lot of AR owners, and I don't know any like you describe.

I understand that "gun folks" are in a lot of quandaries...but I'm not sure to which one you are referring.

And finally, I don't see how any of this relates to the question as to how it's any different for today's Walmart to sell guns, than 60 years ago Sears and JCPenny selling guns...

Do you think a person walking into Walmart has a different perception of the gun they are about to buy than a person walking into Westley Richards?

Why would that be??

 

[flatlanderhuffandpuff]

Here's my take...

I don't remember people being gun nuts back in the 70's and 80's. I was raised in an extremely conservative family, and some of the very same relatives and friends of mine who might be seen as "doomsday preppers" today, could take or leave their guns back in those days. None of them carried, or even had guns in their vehicles unless it was a .22 in the back window for pot shots at the occasional yote.

But today, those very same people are pushing 2A agenda on their FB pages, stocking up on ammo, buying their 4th or 5th concealed carry handgun, building AR's and going through thousands of rounds of ammo each year.

Same people. Very different behaviors. So what changed?

The rhetoric changed. The propaganda changed. That's what. Someone somewhere figured out that if they scared those gun owners enough, they could essentially lock in their vote. First they scared them with stories about crime. Because they knew that would make those people want to buy more guns. Then they scared them with stories about "the gubment" coming to take those guns, and that triggered their "freedom" gene. And once that happened, they were a lock. They were guaranteed to keep those voters so long as they kept the fear streaming. Fear of crime, fear of guns being taken, and now fear of immigrants.

It keeps those votes locked in, regardless of what else is going on, or who the candidate is.

Gun owners have been played in this way for the past 25 years. Wayne LaPierre is an evil genius IMO and he and others have carefully orchestrated this whole thing. They are okay with our streets being flooded with cheap handguns because it helps their friends in the gun industry and it helps get their candidates votes, who in turn defend those friends in the gun industry.

Nevermind the fact that crime is down significantly over that same period of time. Just keep the fear coming and you can lock in those votes. Plain and simple.

This is how I see it based on my own observations of friends and family that I know, their behavior and the things they say and do over the past 30 or so years.

I'm a gun owner and I enjoy using my hunting rifles. I enjoy shooting, reloading and I enjoy the history behind many firearms. But I'm not going to be blindly led by the nose down a path some deranged zealot with political motivations when the facts simply do not support anything they say. I remember very well when Bush Sr. withdrew his membership from the NRA and I still think it's one of the most brave and bold moves I've ever seen. It's just one of many things I admire him for.



https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...blic-rejection-nra-exemplified-his-ncna944086

There is certainly truth in what you've seen. I would point out that this is not the same country or world it was 30 years ago. We are seeing growing political and social rifts that we absolutely didn't have back then. People are afraid of their fellow countrymen. It's a damn shame.

I think an awful lot of gun sales are purchased out of fear. People are fearful that they will no be able to buy these weapons in the future, or worse, that they will need them.

I received some NRA pamphlets a while ago that was blatant fear mongering and it went right into the trash.

 

[RockinU]

Here's my take...

I don't remember people being gun nuts back in the 70's and 80's. I was raised in an extremely conservative family, and some of the very same relatives and friends of mine who might be seen as "doomsday preppers" today, could take or leave their guns back in those days. None of them carried, or even had guns in their vehicles unless it was a .22 in the back window for pot shots at the occasional yote.

But today, those very same people are pushing 2A agenda on their FB pages, stocking up on ammo, buying their 4th or 5th concealed carry handgun, building AR's and going through thousands of rounds of ammo each year.

Same people. Very different behaviors. So what changed?

The rhetoric changed. The propaganda changed. That's what. Someone somewhere figured out that if they scared those gun owners enough, they could essentially lock in their vote. First they scared them with stories about crime. Because they knew that would make those people want to buy more guns. Then they scared them with stories about "the gubment" coming to take those guns, and that triggered their "freedom" gene. And once that happened, they were a lock. They were guaranteed to keep those voters so long as they kept the fear streaming. Fear of crime, fear of guns being taken, and now fear of immigrants.

It keeps those votes locked in, regardless of what else is going on, or who the candidate is.

Gun owners have been played in this way for the past 25 years. Wayne LaPierre is an evil genius IMO and he and others have carefully orchestrated this whole thing. They are okay with our streets being flooded with cheap handguns because it helps their friends in the gun industry and it helps get their candidates votes, who in turn defend those friends in the gun industry.

Nevermind the fact that crime is down significantly over that same period of time. Just keep the fear coming and you can lock in those votes. Plain and simple.

This is how I see it based on my own observations of friends and family that I know, their behavior and the things they say and do over the past 30 or so years.

I'm a gun owner and I enjoy using my hunting rifles. I enjoy shooting, reloading and I enjoy the history behind many firearms. But I'm not going to be blindly led by the nose down a path some deranged zealot with political motivations when the facts simply do not support anything they say. I remember very well when Bush Sr. withdrew his membership from the NRA and I still think it's one of the most brave and bold moves I've ever seen. It's just one of many things I admire him for.



https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...blic-rejection-nra-exemplified-his-ncna944086

You also have to recognize the flip side of this. On the other side there is a whole political machine built around instilling fear of guns, and gun owners, where we are all painted as semi-literate knuckle dragging rednecks who are to be despised and feared. The political machine that works so hard to paint us in that light actually do want to curtail your gun rights...possibly not to the extent portrayed in all of the NRA's "call to action" emails, but you'd be fooling yourself to think that there isn't a growing portion of this country with your diminished firearms rights on their agenda.

 

[brsnow]

I have always felt the NRA was the biggest threat to the 2nd, I think we are seeing this come to light.

 

[Newtosavage]

You also have to recognize the flip side of this. On the other side there is a whole political machine built around instilling fear of guns, and gun owners, where we are all painted as semi-literate knuckle dragging rednecks who are to be despised and feared. The political machine that works so hard to paint us in that light actually do want to curtail your gun rights...possibly not to the extent portrayed in all of the NRA's "call to action" emails, but you'd be fooling yourself to think that there isn't a growing portion of this country with your diminished firearms rights on their agenda.

Great point. And I agree with you. And like flatlander said, it's a damn shame.

I admit I'm an easy target for gun nuts though. All my guns are hunting tools and I don't own an AR because I think they are silly and useless. If someone said you can only use single shot rifles to hunt with from now on, I'd be like cool, I've always liked single shots. LOL

I'm a pretty conservative guy but I also like truth and facts. And from what I can tell, what started this whole "us vs. them" was Newt /LaPierre /Limbaugh teaming up in the 90's to push a right-wing extremist agenda. How else should we expect the left to respond? Now we're seeing a doubling-down of that same right-wing strategy. Guess we'll see how it works out for them this time. The real losers here are the majority of Americans that are stuck in the middle being torn apart by the extremists. It's pretty sickening to me what's happening.

 

[RockinU]

Do you think a person walking into Walmart has a different perception of the gun they are about to buy than a person walking into Westley Richards?

Why would that be??

I've never claimed to be able to discern others perceptions, all I can speak to would be my perception of those people, and that perception would likely be that they were people from 2 entirely different socioeconomic groups. One is likely buying a collectors piece, while the other is buying a utilitarian piece.

 

[rtaylor]

Great point. And I agree with you. And like flatlander said, it's a damn shame.

I admit I'm an easy target for gun nuts though. All my guns are hunting tools and I don't own an AR because I think they are silly and useless. If someone said you can only use single shot rifles to hunt with from now on, I'd be like cool, I've always liked single shots. LOL

I'm a pretty conservative guy but I also like truth and facts. And from what I can tell, what started this whole "us vs. them" was Newt /LaPierre /Limbaugh teaming up in the 90's to push a right-wing extremist agenda. How else should we expect the left to respond? Now we're seeing a doubling-down of that same right-wing strategy. Guess we'll see how it works out for them this time. The real losers here are the majority of Americans that are stuck in the middle being torn apart by the extremists. It's pretty sickening to me what's happening.

I've got a pretty good handle on what the extremists on the left are going for but who are the extremists on the other side and what is their goal?

 

[RockinU]

I've got a pretty good handle on what the extremists on the left are going for but who are the extremists on the other side and what is their goal?

Both sides are just cultivating their base. It's all about votes because votes lead to power.

 

[5MilesBack]

It only needs the perception as positive change.

Well, they fail miserably if that's the qualifier. If they leave "positive" out of that equation......then I guess it passes their test.

 

[5MilesBack]

SCOTUS interpretation of the law is all that matters it's the way the system works. Would be interesting if only your interpretation mattered.

When folks can't interpret "shall not be infringed" correctly from the start, where does that leave us? That means they are absolute morons, or mentally insane. Neither of which should be sitting on the SCOTUS.

 

[Ratbeetle]

I agree, the goal posts will just move and the agenda is unchanged.

So now how will you address the current tend of mass shootings? Doing nothing isn't going to work.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

Honestly, it sounds callous but the deaths from mass shootings in this country are so statistically insignificant as to not even deserve this conversation.

But if people insist on "doing something" they can start by fixing the current nics system. 2a advocates should stay on the message that we already have a system in place. Until nics is fixed, everything else is off the table.

 

[5MilesBack]

So now how will you address the current tend of mass shootings? Doing nothing isn't going to work.

You address them like any other crime. But first you get rid of "gun free zones", then you start an active campaign to provide training and arm American citizens for their own defense. That's the start. The problem is that we have a bunch of idiots in society that can't even begin to understand logic.

Add up every single mass shooting we've had and we're still talking about a "miniscule pittance" compared to any other cause of death in our nation. This has nothing to do with safety and saving lives, that's obvious. If that was their intent they'd focus on where the most lives are lost every single year, and not focus on the .0000001% of the deaths. But what do all these mass shooters have in common? They're all a bunch of loons. Start there. Bring back the insane asylums that the liberals got rid of.........then they wonder why there's a bunch of loons running around killing people. SMH We're dealing with morons here. How do you deal with morons? You don't.

 

[Trr15]

Honestly, it sounds callous but the deaths from mass shootings in this country are so statistically insignificant as to not even deserve this conversation.

But if people insist on "doing something" they can start by fixing the current nics system. 2a advocates should stay on the message that we already have a system in place. Until nics is fixed, everything else is off the table.

As callous as it may sound, I understand this perspective and I've stated as much in conversation over the years. The problem is the emotion and visibility that surrounds these horrific events. Statistics go out the window when we see multiple people being gunned down (including young children) month after month. The majority simply doesn't care about the stats. I have no idea what the solution is. Taking guns from law abiding citizens aint it, but the status quo isn't either. I do think the mental health crisis is a huge factor and largely overlooked in mass shooting incidents with the focus primarily being placed on the guns.

 

[Newtosavage]

I've got a pretty good handle on what the extremists on the left are going for but who are the extremists on the other side and what is their goal?

RockinU covered it. It's all about power. They need the votes to get the power they want.

 

[5MilesBack]

RockinU covered it. It's all about power. They need the votes to get the power they want.

If it was just about "power" they could run on either side. So there must be two totally different ideology structures for each side, so it can't just be about power. But what's interesting is the direction that the entire swamp has moved. The current Democrats are way more liberal than the Dems used to be, and the current Republicans are also "way more liberal" than they've ever been. And then look at where our nation and society has gone..........completely off their rockers into la-la land. Yet you don't see many folks becoming more conservative than past generations. That should explain a lot........with our government and our society. People are getting more and more liberal as time goes on, and the nation and society are getting worse and worse every day. Hmmmmm.

 

[bitbckt]

I'm a pretty conservative guy but I also like truth and facts.

Allowing the CDC to study gun violence would be a good step toward truth and facts.

 

[Kootenay Hunter]

As callous as it may sound, I understand this perspective and I've stated as much in conversation over the years. The problem is the emotion and visibility that surrounds these horrific events. Statistics go out the window when we see multiple people being gunned down (including young children) month after month. The majority simply doesn't care about the stats. I have no idea what the solution is. Taking guns from law abiding citizens aint it, but the status quo isn't either. I do think the mental health crisis is a huge factor and largely overlooked in mass shooting incidents with the focus primarily being placed on the guns.

Car accidents kill more people, but people see that as the price to pay for the freedom of driving around and having vehicles, not many want to sacrifice that freedom.

When it comes to guns, there are millions that are willing to 'sacrifice' the right to bare arms because they have no interest at all in guns and would rather see them only in the hands of authorities.

That's the biggest difference between the two. It's thought that society can function just fine is all or most guns were not out there (and it can and does in many nations). But, the fact of the matter is that all gun violence is committed by criminals and if it isn't a semi auto black rifle, then it's a pipe bomb or a machete...gun laws, no matter how strict they are, do not prevent outlaws from committing gun crimes.

 

[Newtosavage]

look at where our nation and society has gone..........completely off their rockers into la-la land. Yet you don't see many folks becoming more conservative than past generations. That should explain a lot........with our government and our society. People are getting more and more liberal as time goes on, and the nation and society are getting worse and worse every day. Hmmmmm.

Unless you're a person of color who can use a restroom or water fountain, or a woman who gets equal pay to a man.

The far right wants you to believe the nation has gone off it's rocker. It suits their purposes and gets your vote.

People being treated equally, with dignity, and less crime than 40 years ago sounds like things are headed in an okay direction to me. But that doesn't feed the narrative.

 

[jfs82]

If it was just about "power" they could run on either side. So there must be two totally different ideology structures for each side, so it can't just be about power. But what's interesting is the direction that the entire swamp has moved. The current Democrats are way more liberal than the Dems used to be, and the current Republicans are also "way more liberal" than they've ever been. And then look at where our nation and society has gone..........completely off their rockers into la-la land. Yet you don't see many folks becoming more conservative than past generations. That should explain a lot........with our government and our society. People are getting more and more liberal as time goes on, and the nation and society are getting worse and worse every day. Hmmmmm.

I think there are way too many potential points to assess this on personally, but a lot of historians vehemently disagree with this statement and believe the opposite. The usual point I hear as reference being post WWII Republican demigod President Eisenhower warning that the military industrial complex and it's growing role in politics was one of the greatest threats the US faced.