AK Sheep, Population Observations

[Alder_]

FAAFO, serious question.
How are they addressing it?

Mineral licks?

 

[mdoolin]

I was surprised honestly in the area i hunted with what my wife and I found.

We met a father son duo on the airstrip on the way into the field who had killed 2 rams from a group of 5-6. Their rams were 9 & 10 and they said one of the other rams in the group was clearly legal as well.

My wife and I got dropped shortly after that and although we didn't see a ton of sheep we found a 9 yr old ram by himself to hunt. We actually spotted a group of ~15 rams several miles and drainages away that we were working toward when we found my wife's ram. The area we were hunting had two groups of ~15 ewes most of which had lambs.

Definitely not the hay day but there are still mature rams roaming the mountains and hopefully we can start rebuilding from here. The pilot we flew with told me back when he started flying in the area(70s) he remembers talking to another pilot/outfitter in the area complaining at the lack of sheep. The other pilot told him he should have seen it 5 years earlier(much worse). His point was since that day he saw the sheep population get better and better until it's peak several years back.

 

[Kisaralik]

Here is some interesting info in the context of avg age of rams getting killed and avg horn measurements from the last handful of years, 2019 tp present. Some of this will likely be a repeat for those that have been following along for a few years.

Data from ADFG's harvest data tool: https://secure.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=harvest.lookup

Rams Harvested
2019 = 840
2020 = 627
2021 = 487
2022 = 424
2023 = 340

Avg Age of Rams Harvested
2019 = 8.65
2020 = 8.81
2021 = 8.28
2022 = 8.21
2023 = 8.06

Avg Horn Length
2019 = 35.09
2020 = 35.25
2021 = 35.03
2022 = 35.88
2023 = 35.32

Average Horn Base
2019 = 13.02
2020 = 12.72
2021 = 12.79
2022 = 12.78
2023 = 12.91

Interesting how the average age of rams killed has gone down 1/2 to 3/4 of a year, but the horn measurements haven't really changed much. If anything it seems like horn dimensions proportionate to age have improved/increased.

Does subsistence sheep harvest get filtered into these data sets at all? I have yet to figure out where that info appears but occasionally I see a horn length that seems wayyyyy to small and as an extreme outlier. That said, I suppose there are some local-residents shooting monsters in NP's as subsistence too...

 

[ColeyG]

My understanding is that all subsistence harvested sheep are reported to and sealed by the state. The feds don't do anything with sheep re: permitting and/or reporting as far as I am aware. I too have wondered about those 25" 5 year olds in the data and have assumed those were fed subsistence sheep and/or taken in any ram draw areas.

I am also wondering if the sub legal sheep get included in that harvest data or if those are kept out? I have assumed they are included, but really have no idea.

Maybe Joe Want or one of the other bios can elaborate?

 

[ColeyG]

Well, sheep season is a wrap for me.

Going into the season I had plans to take a couple of quick peek type trips into two areas before heading into the hills for a longer trip with my primary partner in late August. Both of the quick hitter missions were cut short due to weather without every really having the chance to get eyes on the primary objective or any rams.

In late August I got into the eastern Alaska Range for about 8 days and covered a fair bit of ground in two primary drainages. This was all new country for us so I don't have any idea of what a normal baseline for the area is. That having been said, I was pretty encouraged by what we saw. 120-ish sheep overall. 17 rams, three of which were legal but not what we were looing for. Very good lamb to ewe ratios at 1:1.

The week before we got into the hills it dumped snow. 12+ inches at 5000 feet and up. That was a bit limiting for where we wanted to get to, but definitely moved most of the animals out of the high country for the remainder of the year.

No horns came home with us this year but some memorable memories were made as always. A few videos of the youngsters we got to spend some time with at the link below.

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[cbeard64]

Congrats on a great hunt! Personally, I am much more impressed with your story and photos than the ones we often see with hunters posed with young dead squeaker rams.

 

[ColeyG]

Congrats on a great hunt! Personally, I am much more impressed with your story and photos than the ones we often see with hunters posed with young dead squeaker rams.

Man there has been a lot of those this year. I can't count the number of photos of rams I've received from friends asking "how on earth is this thing legal?" this year. I'll be curious to see how the age avg breaks down for this year when the data is out.

 

[WalterH]

Waaaay too many guides playing russian roulette with short, young rams the last few years. The sub-legal take % for guides is about the same as private hunters if I remember correctly, which is total BS and should come with more significant penalties in my mind. I wish we could go the Canadian model where guides push and/or require harvest of mature rams, 9-10 and older.

I can't selling a hunt/ram like this for 20-30k. Legal, I guess, but damn.

 

[Dexter Grayson]

kind of a dick move to post someone’s sheep without their permission and mocking it. That ram had horrible genetics and good for the hunter to take it out of the gene pool.

Don’t be dumb

 

[Dexter Grayson]

thanks for your contribution

First time is free, will have to charge next time.

 

[as.ks.ak]

kind of a dick move to post someone’s sheep without their permission and mocking it. That ram had horrible genetics and good for the hunter to take it out of the gene pool.

I’d rather see a squeaker from a walk in hunter than the big helicopter rams from Canada. A very large % of them are not even an hunt. A friend shot his 39” ram on day one about 1/4 mile from the LZ. The majority of big rams killed in AK have a lot of av fuel behind them. And the “hunt” isn’t much to talk about.

What may not be a trophy to you is a trophy to someone else.

That ram was guided…… by an outfit that’s known for shooting less than full curl 8 yr olds…. Banana 8’s some might say. There’s a nickname in there somewhere, I’m sure.

Play stupid games consistently enough, you’re bound to win some stupid prizes. And might I add, I hope they do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WalterH]

kind of a dick move to post someone’s sheep without their permission and mocking it. That ram had horrible genetics and good for the hunter to take it out of the gene pool.

I’d rather see a squeaker from a walk in hunter than the big helicopter rams from Canada. A very large % of them are not even an hunt. A friend shot his 39” ram on day one about 1/4 mile from the LZ. The majority of big rams killed in AK have a lot of av fuel behind them. And the “hunt” isn’t much to talk about.

What may not be a trophy to you is a trophy to someone else.

I had mixed feelings about the post and probably should have held off. Thanks for the feedback. It is a publicly posted image so I don't feel permission is required. It was shared with the world.

For clarification, I am not critical of the hunter and I hope they had a great hunt and are more than happy with their trophy and experience.

I am, however, being critical of guide services that promote taking young and barely legal rams and for toeing that line so closely that a significant number of them are taking sub-legal rams on an annual basis. That particular guide has a disclaimer on their web site that says the areas they hunt are known for sheep that reach 8 years old without being full curl.

 

[ColeyG]

I’d rather see a squeaker from a walk in hunter than the big helicopter rams from Canada. A very large % of them are not even an hunt. A friend shot his 39” ram on day one about 1/4 mile from the LZ. The majority of big rams killed in AK have a lot of av fuel behind them. And the “hunt” isn’t much to talk about.

What may not be a trophy to you is a trophy to someone else.

Those are two separate issues for me, killing old rams vs. methods and means.

I agree that some of those helo hunts aren't as "pure" or "earned" as a walk-in DIY, but for the most part, they are leaving younger sheep on the hill to grow and targeting old rams. I agree that most mature rams killed in AK are due to the almighty supercub and a healthy helping of AV gas. I suppose that is their version of "earning it." I don't have that luxury, so I try to make up for it with miles on the boots. So far I am falling way short...

I'd rather not see squeakers killed at all I guess. Yes this falls more in the realm of ethics than legality. Anyone who wants to shoot a full curl 6 y/o should feel free to do so and is within the current framework of the law. That having been said, when we have so many people edging so close to that line of legal vs. not, bad things are bound to happen.

I'd like the see the requirements change so that fewer 6 and 7y/o rams are dying each year. I think this is a potential population level impact that wasn't really foreseen by the advocates of the FC/8 y/o model way back when. The thinking has been that the 8 y/o and older rams are on their way to the dirt and aren't necessary to maintain the breeding needs of the population. I don't think that can be fairly said the 6 and 7 y/o rams. The "loss of the leader" conundrum also needs some careful study at some point.

 

[WalterH]

It’s a legal ram with shitty genetics that wasn’t going to be much. Probably means the world to the guy who got it. It’s a dick move to mock it.

I edited my post to more closely line up with my intended point. Not mocking the hunter, but pointing out what I think is ongoing bad customer service and borderline unethical behavior by the guide service in question.

 

[WalterH]

I’ve never seen that posted on their website. But honestly have only looked at it a time or two.

8 year old 3/4 and no mass, let them take them.

Fair point. If they are killing those rams, less competition for the good ones, not that there's any left in their area...

 

[Bambistew]

That ram is bigger than the Governors tag ram. At least its legal.

 

[ColeyG]

That ram is bigger than the Governors tag ram. At least its legal.

Ouch!

 

[Dexter Grayson]

You have to have something of value to be able to charge. And last I remember you owe me.

Owe you a lesson on how to not be dumb? Guess I’ll pay up. Lesson 1: once you post something on the internet it’s public. Now that you’re done I’ll move on.

As far as AK sheep goes, I believe it’s headed towards a statewide draw. Which I’m not opposed to. The only thing we can control are predators and hunting pressure. The reports I’ve heard this year are very similar to last year. Happy to see a few nice rams come off the mountain but the average age dropping is alarming.

 

[ColeyG]

And a draw will fix it? Will it fix the age class dropping?

Historically as sheep numbers go down so do the number of sheep hunters. I see no reason to go to a draw for sheep statewide unless it’s going to bring the population up. Last I checked we are not harvesting very many ewes…

Perhaps indirectly if there isn’t so much pressure in the general areas or guides competing with other guides and residents, we can all be encouraged to take some more time and focus on older rams.

In reality, going full draw alone probably wouldn’t change the age problem we are currently experiencing.

I’ve been taking about the hunter numbers vs. harvest a fair bit lately in my very small circle of sheep friends. I think we are in general agreement that though overall numbers of sheep hunters are trending down, the felt “competition” is about the same.

The people that are still in the game tend to be the pretty dedicated and capable ground pounders, the supercub cowboys, and the guides. With fewer legal rams on the hill, it feels just as competitive as ever, if not more so, trying to run one of them down.

 

[Dexter Grayson]

And a draw will fix it? Will it fix the age class dropping?

Historically as sheep numbers go down so do the number of sheep hunters. I see no reason to go to a draw for sheep statewide unless it’s going to bring the population up. Last I checked we are not harvesting very many ewes…

Fix? No. A quick look at TMA and DCUA proves that.