9mm for bear protection, even grizz!?

[FlyGuy]

I think you take what you got.

There was a guy that looked at something like 97 defenses of aggressive bears with firearms. He noted successful defenses even down to the 22 LR.

I haven't quite contemplated the wisdom of it yet (and I haven't done it yet), but I am considering taking my 9mm into grizz country over my 10mm because I shoot it better.

I remember reading this report a few years ago and I was shocked by the number of charging bears that were killed by a 9mm. It really got me thinking about what I would carry? I have no plans to be back in grizzly country again anytime soon so it’s not a decision I need to make today, but I wonder about it a lot. The last time I was in Grizzly country I carried a 480 ruger super redhawk Alaskan. That was a bad ass snug nose monster gun with 410gr hardcast ammo, but i never got up the nerve to try and shoot it single handed. I eventually sold it and thought I’d go with a 10mm one day. But, a couple years ago I finally did my concealed carry and purchased a sig P365 in 9mm and I’m amazed at how well I can shoot it. It’s very light and compact and it just gets on target like pointing your finger. I’ve not looked into hardcast ammo for it (it’s a really short barrel, and sig makes some specialized ammo for it to prevent jams). But if I knew that buffalo bore made a round to reliably fire/cycle in that P365 it would be damn hard to talk me out of taking it over anything else.


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[Northwest]

I've been shopping around for some time pricing out 10mm handguns for bear protection. My next hunt is coming up fast, and I may not be able to swing a new pistol before we leave. As a result, I got to looking around at 9mm ammo and ran across the Buffalo Bore +P outdoorsman rounds. Apparently these hard cast rounds are extremely reliable and accurate according to the manufacturer. In addition, there is a story on the 9mm Outdoorsman page of an Alaskan guide that killed a large charging grizz with these bullets.

Given their price, reliability, and proven real world effectiveness, is there a good reason not to simply stock up and practice with these in my high-cap Ruger?

I feel like it’s all situational. You might see it coming in from say 40 yards and be able to get off a number of shots semi accurately with a 9mm in which case the smaller caliber would be advantageous because of the less recoil, although I’m sure the +p would add a bit. On the other hand if you saw the bear at 10 yards coming at you, you might only be able to get one shot off in which a larger caliber would be better. With all that said I would definitely get the +p with the assuming your gun can handle it, your barrel had to be rated to handle the higher pressure loads.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Bears cover about 13 or so yards a second.

How long does it take you (generic) to draw, acquire the target and get a CNS hit the first time on a fast moving target?

Seems like lots of folks “talk” yet few mention actually training for this event including their times.

 

[Drew308]

Can it be done, sure. Has it been done in the past? Yes.

Does it mean that the 9mm is a good griz self defense round, no.

But if it’s all a person has, it’s better than nothing.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Bears cover about 13 or so yards a second.

How long does it take you (generic) to draw, acquire the target and get a CNS hit the first time on a fast moving target?

Seems like lots of folks “talk” yet few mention actually training for this event including their times.

Agree with you and I'm going to start practicing after I get the holster I plan to take on the trip. Basically try to make it as real world as possible. I think building muscle memory drawing out of said holster is the first step. Next would be drawing and firing one shot accurately. As many have said you may only get one shot so its critical to make it count. Finally, drawing and fast-firing accurately would probably be my regimen. If I could rig a target that comes at me that would be ideal. Not sure how to simulate other than going to an indoor range with paper you can advance to you.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

The bear will feel what you feel in recoil in regards to the initial impact. Physics. Take what you feel in recoil (energy), 9 mm or 10 mm, and apply that same force to a much larger animal and that energy isn't going to deter a bear unless it's a very well place shot. Gun blast will play a factor as well simply due to the shock factor. They never hear a gun blast from their prey.

A good reference is police officers who train for crisis situations. I'll try and dig up the article but in crisis situations, which is generally very close proximity, the target is hit much less than one would predict. For those who never train for crisis situations it's safe to assume their success rate would be even less.

That being said, something is definitely better than nothing. I read another article stating bear spray was a much better deterrent than a firearm. Partly due to precision not being required just spray in their direction. If I were in bear country I would probably have both on hand and hopefully I'm with a partner. One will have the firearm the other bear spray. Assuming you have a few seconds to deploy said device and have the presence of mind to use it correctly. Some will remain calm some won't. If I were ever in that situation I would want Ryan Callahan by my side. If you haven't seen his grizz encounter with Rinella watch it. Steve did good I think partly because of Callahan's calmness in the moment. Steve's initial reaction was to back up. Ryan reacted the way we all hope we would react! Not saying Steve did bad it just seemed Ryan had more calmness and presence of mind in the moment.

I have a 357 magnum with 180 grain RNFP gas check rounds. I bought it for black bears mostly to keep the wife happy when I'm out and about. If I were in grizzly country I would take because it's my best option. Personally, I would probably deploy bear spray if I had time to choose. Hopefully, get the eyes and nose and if the bear is persistent I still have the gun.

When the bear spray expiries my son and I go in the woods and practice bear encounter scenarios which I recommend. The first time we did this we both naturally sprayed too high. If this were a real encounter the most dense portion of the spray would have went over the bear's back. We were surprised but it feels like you have to aim more downward to hit their head. FWIW

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Agree with you and I'm going to start practicing after I get the holster I plan to take on the trip. Basically try to make it as real world as possible. I think building muscle memory drawing out of said holster is the first step. Next would be drawing and firing one shot accurately. As many have said you may only get one shot so its critical to make it count. Finally, drawing and fast-firing accurately would probably be my regimen. If I could rig a target that comes at me that would be ideal. Not sure how to simulate other than going to an indoor range with paper you can advance to you.

Look at the laser trainers at least in initially. Nice way to practice and see actual times. Used mine to practice with rifle and handgun and the times dropped dramatically. Doesn’t mimic a moving target which is the biggest issue.

 

[Jkwright]

I have no personal experience with bears in any aspect. That said, In a charging type situation the only way I would expect to stop one is with a brain or spinal cord hit. I would not be overly worried about breaking through shoulders etc because I would expect a charging bear with a broken shoulder and torn up lungs/heart to still kill me.

 

[Supranatural]

I would say one advantage of bear spray over a pistol is spray is effective to the point of contact and beyond while a pistol is effective for only a single shot or two if you can keep your nerves to aim. Even if being mauled you can spray the can over your back and hit the bear. Its going to suck really bad for you too but its better than being eaten.

Personally I’d say that’s a questionable advantage. In all likelihood if the bear is mauling you it means you’ve done a “mag dump” of your bear spray and there’s nothing left in the well at that point.

It’s a matter of philosophy and situation. For one thing I train a lot, including the draw from holster. I’d rather take my chances I can hit the bear with a full mag dump from my gun than spray. Plus I don‘t solo hunt, my 25 yo son and 11 yo son are with me and the 25 yo is a superb shot and also carries. For me this makes the pistol an obvious choice.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I'm not counting on stopping a charging bear of either species. If it happened that would be best case scenario. My goal would be putting as many rounds into head/neck/vitals as possible and keep shooting while I'm able until its down.

 

[IdahoHunter57]

Wouldn't go in with anything smaller then a 10mm with underwood or buffalo bore solids.

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[PaBone]

Last year in Montana I hunted with my two son's one carrying a 10mm and the other carrying a Ruger 357mag. I carry a Colt King Cobra 357Mag and you do feel safe as a group. This year my son's aren't going and going with my buddy and his son. I may be hunting more this year on my own which I don't mind. I have charging grizzly bear targets and practice drawing and unloading. But walking back to camp in the dark by yourself if a bear attacks your going to have your hands full to say the least. Last year we had more fresh mountain lion tracks around are camp than anything else.

 

[Pony Soldier]

When I worked on Admiralty Island I saw brownies every day. Some of the scariest work was north of Juneau going through the salmon berry tunnels to get through to the trees on the other side. I never met a bear but found a salmon flopping at the other end a couple times.

Probably the closest was on Prince of Wales when my pilot landed and said "get in" - pack and all. You haven't got time to stow your pack. We lifted off just as two sows and a cub broke cover and started to run towards the helicopter.

Of the locals, I talked to a BLM surveyor who carried a double barreled 12 gauge with the triggers wired back, barrel cut short, and only a pistol grip. It hung on a string over his shoulder under his slicker. One barrel was slugs and the other was double ought. As he said - you don't have time to aim- just point and fan the hammers. It must of worked cause he was near retirement and was still alive.

I carry a ruger 45lc loaded up to mid 44 range. It must work cause I'm old and I'm still alive.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

When I worked on Admiralty Island I saw brownies every day. Some of the scariest work was north of Juneau going through the salmon berry tunnels to get through to the trees on the other side. I never met a bear but found a salmon flopping at the other end a couple times.

Probably the closest was on Prince of Wales when my pilot landed and said "get in" - pack and all. You haven't got time to stow your pack. We lifted off just as two sows and a cub broke cover and started to run towards the helicopter.

Of the locals, I talked to a BLM surveyor who carried a double barreled 12 gauge with the triggers wired back, barrel cut short, and only a pistol grip. It hung on a string over his shoulder under his slicker. One barrel was slugs and the other was double ought. As he said - you don't have time to aim- just point and fan the hammers. It must of worked cause he was near retirement and was still alive.

I carry a ruger 45lc loaded up to mid 44 range. It must work cause I'm old and I'm still alive.

.45LC reloads are plenty powerful. I had a Bisley Blackhawk in .45LC at one time and reloaded using some of Linebaugh’s hard cast recipes. Stout stuff there…

 

[Pony Soldier]

I have followed the recipe I found in guns and ammo in the early 70s. 225 gr jacketed hornady with about 13.3 gr of unique. It is very accurate. I have been known to shoot the parachord holding up our side band at 50-60 ft so we didn't have to climb up the tree to release it when we broke camp.

 

[Mirxivus]

I spent 7 days deep in grizz country (Bob Marshall Wilderness) last fall. The outfit we hunted with has been in the area more than 30 years. A few observations from guys with way more experience than I'll ever have in the big bear woods:

1- They don't believe in bear spray whatsoever due to erratic wind conditions in the mountains, the potential to disable the hunter, and preventing a guy from saving himself.
2- For guided hunts they don't recommend clients carry sidearms. Each guide carried a short-barreled Winchester or Marlin lever action guide gun with iron sights in .45-70 that never left their side. In their view, sidearms are just added weight and unnecessary when the guide has back up rifle nd the hunter has a rifle.
3- For DIY hunters without a guide or hunting partner, having a sidearm for backup "may" make sense, especially when an animal is down and your processing it.
4- The camp cook carried a sidearm at all times, mostly for curious black bears, but nonetheless, she was always armed. She carried a Springfield Hellcat in 9mm.

So for DIY hunting groups would they be likely to recommend one of the group members bring a rifle like the guides did?

 

[bz_711]

I packed a 9MM last year in Griz country...of course it's all I have and shoot...but I think that's most important to be handy/comfortable with it.

Also - it's more important to know how to reduce encounters, and what to do if you have an encounter or an animal down. Nobody really wants to get to the point of pulling a handgun on a Griz...don't think many guys hearts could handle it...

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

So for DIY hunting groups would they be likely to recommend one of the group members bring a rifle like the guides did?

I don't know what the laws in MT are around this. If you all have tags then it may not be a problem. If I was going this route with a grooup of buddies, and one guy was designated as security, I'd opt for a short barreled 12 gauge with slugs or buckshot. At close range, 2 3/4" 00 buckshot loads can deliver 8- .33" 54 grain pellets anywhere from 1100 to 1500 fps in a pretty dense pattern depending on the gun. You can choose either lead shot or copper plated for improved penetration.

 

[hobbes]

My previous boss has a target hanging from a zip line that he's rigged up. It starts uphill from him 25 or 30 yards. It's weighted so that it reaches a speed as fast or faster than a grizzly as it zooms downhill towards him. He waits until it gets close, draws, shoots, jumps out of the way.

He and a couple guys were bluff charged three times by a sow with a cub a few years ago while on a goat hunt. She got closer each time. He had his rifle on her, his brother had a handgun out (if I recall correctly), and the third had spray out and handgun still holstered. The buddy with spray had experience in grizz country and held them off from shooting her. He finally hit her with spray on the third charge and she left for good. I don't recall if she got a good dose of the spray or not but she left regardless.

He built the target set up and bought a 44 mag revolver shortly afterwards.


Nothing says stay the heck out of here like spotting a sow with cubs.

 

[GARLICSALT]

There was a guy that looked at something like 97 defenses of aggressive bears with firearms. He noted successful defenses even down to the 22 LR.

Can anybody find a link to this? I tried to find it, but apparently I'm too lame. Thanks guys.