9mm for bear protection, even grizz!?

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Can anybody find a link to this? I tried to find it, but apparently I'm too lame. Thanks guys.

Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber

Using a pistol to defend against bear attacks seems to be a viable option.

www.ammoland.com

 

[ThunderJack49]

Whatever it is, just make sure you have a light on it.

 

[roosiebull]

I've been shopping around for some time pricing out 10mm handguns for bear protection. My next hunt is coming up fast, and I may not be able to swing a new pistol before we leave. As a result, I got to looking around at 9mm ammo and ran across the Buffalo Bore +P outdoorsman rounds. Apparently these hard cast rounds are extremely reliable and accurate according to the manufacturer. In addition, there is a story on the 9mm Outdoorsman page of an Alaskan guide that killed a large charging grizz with these bullets.

Given their price, reliability, and proven real world effectiveness, is there a good reason not to simply stock up and practice with these in my high-cap Ruger?

It’s easy to get wrapped up in this stuff, but what are the actual odds of you getting mauled by a bear to start? Not great, still considered a freak accident, and down the list of hazards of the hunt (driving there is probably the biggest hazard by a large margin)

Once we get through all of that, what are the odds that a 9mm wouldn’t end an encounter but a 10mm would? Probably very small odds.

I would rather carry a 10mm in grizz country, but only if I could get it in ample time to shoot a LOT, and have plenty of ammo to shoot

I recently got rid of my Glock 20 and bought a hellcat for general woods carry… granted we don’t have grizz here.

Even if we did, I don’t know I would switch back because I shoot the hellcat much better, and I can stay in ammo to shoot… the past couple years I had my 10mm, it was hard to find ammo, and it was generally expensive when I did and it became tough to be able to shoot it enough to stay sharp with it.

I like the idea of the 10mm but I think I would pick my s&w 629 over another 10mm if I feel like I want more than the 9mm, or if I get another 10mm, it won’t be a glock with a stock trigger… between the horrible trigger and recoil, that G20 was tough to shoot well.

I got a little reality check with that pistol a couple years ago (long story kinda) but I found myself on the only trail in chest high grass at very first gray light and a big Tom lion closing the distance (he didn’t know I existed) and I had my recurve in my hand, and knowing it was going to be way too close, I was very indecisive about using the recurve or pistol and wasn’t making up my mind and last second with the lion sub 10yds and closing knowing I wouldn’t see it again until it was on top of me I set my bow down and when that cat appeared in the tall grass that last time at spitting distance I start adding pressure to that squishy glock trigger and realized my shooting tab was blocking the trigger, I had a brief “oh ****!” Moment and ripped through the trigger and grazed the cat on his left side and ruined my morning elk hunt… learned a couple lessons there, luckily it wasn’t a dangerous situation, but it was pretty intense watching that thing in gray light slowly walking straight to me only being visible briefly in the tall grass… also a good lesson in practice how you hunt… I have never shot any of my pistols with a tab on, or even my compound release… that’s a mistake most make I assume, you don’t know if it will get in the way until you practice that way… when you need the pistol is the wrong time to find out your release or tab is in the way…

I did finally get that big tom cat killed this past fall, but of course he’s replaced now, but the dominant tom in the area is not as big, that cat was freakishly big.

I think if you can shoot a bunch, the 10mm is the perfect woods cartridge, but if not, better hope your first shot is on point, because quick follow up shots don’t get better

 

[FlyGuy]

It’s easy to get wrapped up in this stuff, but what are the actual odds of you getting mauled by a bear to start? Not great, still considered a freak accident, and down the list of hazards of the hunt (driving there is probably the biggest hazard by a large margin)

Once we get through all of that, what are the odds that a 9mm wouldn’t end an encounter but a 10mm would? Probably very small odds.

I would rather carry a 10mm in grizz country, but only if I could get it in ample time to shoot a LOT, and have plenty of ammo to shoot

I recently got rid of my Glock 20 and bought a hellcat for general woods carry… granted we don’t have grizz here.

Even if we did, I don’t know I would switch back because I shoot the hellcat much better, and I can stay in ammo to shoot… the past couple years I had my 10mm, it was hard to find ammo, and it was generally expensive when I did and it became tough to be able to shoot it enough to stay sharp with it.

I like the idea of the 10mm but I think I would pick my s&w 629 over another 10mm if I feel like I want more than the 9mm, or if I get another 10mm, it won’t be a glock with a stock trigger… between the horrible trigger and recoil, that G20 was tough to shoot well.

I got a little reality check with that pistol a couple years ago (long story kinda) but I found myself on the only trail in chest high grass at very first gray light and a big Tom lion closing the distance (he didn’t know I existed) and I had my recurve in my hand, and knowing it was going to be way too close, I was very indecisive about using the recurve or pistol and wasn’t making up my mind and last second with the lion sub 10yds and closing knowing I wouldn’t see it again until it was on top of me I set my bow down and when that cat appeared in the tall grass that last time at spitting distance I start adding pressure to that squishy glock trigger and realized my shooting tab was blocking the trigger, I had a brief “oh ****!” Moment and ripped through the trigger and grazed the cat on his left side and ruined my morning elk hunt… learned a couple lessons there, luckily it wasn’t a dangerous situation, but it was pretty intense watching that thing in gray light slowly walking straight to me only being visible briefly in the tall grass… also a good lesson in practice how you hunt… I have never shot any of my pistols with a tab on, or even my compound release… that’s a mistake most make I assume, you don’t know if it will get in the way until you practice that way… when you need the pistol is the wrong time to find out your release or tab is in the way…

I did finally get that big tom cat killed this past fall, but of course he’s replaced now, but the dominant tom in the area is not as big, that cat was freakishly big.

I think if you can shoot a bunch, the 10mm is the perfect woods cartridge, but if not, better hope your first shot is on point, because quick follow up shots don’t get better

Holy cow. Man that’s a hard learned lesson right there! Wow!


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[roosiebull]

Holy cow. Man that’s a hard learned lesson right there! Wow!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Indeed it was, and how that season went with my recurve (that lion encounter was the first Monday of the season) I felt better about last second decision on the pistol… it was eating at me not just shooting the damn cat with my recurve, but I knew it was going to be frontal, way close, and possibly blocked vitals due to the grass, so the pistol was the better option… at the time it bugged me

How many archery hunters who carry a sidearm practice with their release on? (Or tab/glove for stick bow hunters) hopefully more than I assume do… I do now

 

[yfarm]

Barrel porting on the g20 makes staying on target much easier and faster. Was in a shooting class with a petite woman trying to shoot a compact 40 s&w, shots all over the target at 5,7,10 yds. Gave her the g20 and was in the center and much better control. That being said I shoot tighter groups with my open sight my 45-70 at 25 yds than with the glock at 15 yds.

 

[PA Hunter]

My friend got charged in the Thorofare last archery season quartering his elk. Shot the griz right between the eyes double tap with hardcast at 10 yds. It didnt kill the bear but it did veer off & run away. I would not use a 9mm in grizzly area for defense. Step up to the 10mm.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Barrel porting on the g20 makes staying on target much easier and faster. Was in a shooting class with a petite woman trying to shoot a compact 40 s&w, shots all over the target at 5,7,10 yds. Gave her the g20 and was in the center and much better control. That being said I shoot tighter groups with my open sight my 45-70 at 25 yds than with the glock at 15 yds.

This brings up a good question/concern though…. Ported barrels mean more muzzle blast in the woods when you’re not typically wearing ear protection. I have a 1911 I considered doing a .460 Rowland conversion on instead of using the 9mm. However, ported barrel is mandatory and muzzle blast considerable.

 

[Bullzeyez61]

My friend got charged in the Thorofare last archery season quartering his elk. Shot the griz right between the eyes double tap with hardcast at 10 yds. It didnt kill the bear but it did veer off & run away. I would not use a 9mm in grizzly area for defense. Step up to the 10mm.

If he did not kill the bear and examine the impact of his shots how does he know he hit it right between the eyes? I would imagine the heart was a racing and to double tap him it would be hard to confirm shot placement of one or both of the shots.

 

[PA Hunter]

If he did not kill the bear and examine the impact of his shots how does he know he hit it right between the eyes? I would imagine the heart was a racing and to double tap him it would be hard to confirm shot placement of one or both of the shots.

I retired 24 years PA State police he was my partner 26 years and was our SERT team firearms instructor I seen him shoot and no doubt he hit it plus he saw it coming had time to crouch down. damn bear scared the guides horse tied up and it kicked his rifle through the air. The guide was very appreciative but no I wouldn't intentionally take a 9mm.

 

[Bullzeyez61]

Roger that!

 

[280ack]

Assuming you can hit your target, stopping power and the time it takes to cease the aggression is the only thing that matters. While better than nothing, small calibers equate to death by a thousand cuts, it takes time.
How much time do you have.

 

[CoStick]

We know 9mm have successfully killed charging brown bears. Do we have occurrences to reference where they failed?

 

[Read1t48]

How many archery hunters who carry a sidearm practice with their release on? (Or tab/glove for stick bow hunters) hopefully more than I assume do… I do now

That’s a really good point. I shoot pistol a fair amount but have never shot with my release on. But I got to thinking more about it... I am left-handed, shoot a pistol left-handed, but shoot a right handed bow. So for me it’s perfect! G 20 for me in the woods in a Kenai Holster behind my bino harness. It is heavy at first but by the end of opening weekend I really notice it’s there.

Last year, I killed my elk early in the morning in the pouring down rain. Solo hunt and it died inside a dark thick patch of timber.
The rain was coming down so hard you couldn’t hear anything. I had one side quartered and a mountain lion snuck up into the kill site and growled/ screamed at me from about 80 feet away. I have no idea how long it had been sitting there but I took all of the quarters out into the middle of an opening for my return trips. I felt very good with a pistol at the ready.
The most dangerous part was when it screamed it scared me so bad I almost fell over backwards with a Havalon in my hand. It wouldn’t have been the cougar but the knife that probably killed me.

 

[roosiebull]

Assuming you can hit your target, stopping power and the time it takes to cease the aggression is the only thing that matters. While better than nothing, small calibers equate to death by a thousand cuts, it takes time.
How much time do you have.

Would you rather have 3 shots on target with a 9mm or one chance with a 44 mag? I don’t think death by 1000 cuts is realistic, a 9mm hardcast to the dome is likely going to be effective, and a 44 mag off target likely won’t be unless the noise of it going off changed the mood of the attacking critter, in which case a smaller gun would probably work the same.

None of it really matters if you can’t shoot the gun you’re packing, that’s where I’m at, I’ll take my chances with a pistol I shoot well and can get several rounds on target fast rather than one… and they are a lot lighter

If you are aiming for a cns hit, and you hit your target, I don’t think a 9mm is too small, with the right bullet, it will penetrate, if it penetrates, how much less effective is it vs a bigger cartridge?

 

[280ack]

Would you rather have 3 shots on target with a 9mm or one chance with a 44 mag? I don’t think death by 1000 cuts is realistic, a 9mm hardcast to the dome is likely going to be effective, and a 44 mag off target likely won’t be unless the noise of it going off changed the mood of the attacking critter, in which case a smaller gun would probably work the same.

None of it really matters if you can’t shoot the gun you’re packing, that’s where I’m at, I’ll take my chances with a pistol I shoot well and can get several rounds on target fast rather than one… and they are a lot lighter

If you are aiming for a cns hit, and you hit your target, I don’t think a 9mm is too small, with the right bullet, it will penetrate, if it penetrates, how much less effective is it vs a bigger cartridge?

3 shots on target ? you must be an IPSC shooter as the bear will cover 35 yards in about 1.5 seconds. Drawing and firing 3 rounds takes the average entry-level IPSC or PPC shooter far more than 1.5 seconds on a stationary target the times go up on moving targets.
The best 9 mm (147 gr .355 dia hard cast) generates 675-700 FPE and recoils far more felt recoil than the std 9mm round. The 44 mag (.427 dia 340 gr) hard cast generates 1,500 foot-pounds of energy. The larger diameters create a larger wound channel and greater and faster blood loss. What is going to incapacitate or kill faster?
With all due respect to your views, I disagree. The big "IF" is if you hit your target. If you hit your target do you want energy transfers in the 1,500 FPE or in the 700 FPE range ?

Good conversation !

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Would you rather have 3 shots on target with a 9mm or one chance with a 44 mag? I don’t think death by 1000 cuts is realistic, a 9mm hardcast to the dome is likely going to be effective, and a 44 mag off target likely won’t be unless the noise of it going off changed the mood of the attacking critter, in which case a smaller gun would probably work the same.

None of it really matters if you can’t shoot the gun you’re packing, that’s where I’m at, I’ll take my chances with a pistol I shoot well and can get several rounds on target fast rather than one… and they are a lot lighter

If you are aiming for a cns hit, and you hit your target, I don’t think a 9mm is too small, with the right bullet, it will penetrate, if it penetrates, how much less effective is it vs a bigger cartridge?

Yep. Same conversation folks love to have with rifles: shoot-ability vs power.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

3 shots on target ? you must be an IPSC shooter as the bear will cover 35 yards in about 1.5 seconds. Drawing and firing 3 rounds takes the average entry-level IPSC or PPC shooter far more than 1.5 seconds on a stationary target the times go up on moving targets.
The best 9 mm (147 gr .355 dia hard cast) generates 675-700 FPE and recoils far more felt recoil than the std 9mm round. The 44 mag (.427 dia 340 gr) hard cast generates 1,500 foot-pounds of energy. The larger diameters create a larger wound channel and greater and faster blood loss. What is going to incapacitate or kill faster?
With all due respect to your views, I disagree. The big "IF" is if you hit your target. If you hit your target do you want energy transfers in the 1,500 FPE or in the 700 FPE range ?

Good conversation !

This is Rokslide so energy doesn’t matter.

Just like rifles… shoot the most powerful handgun that you can shoot accurately and quickly.

 

[long hunter]

I competed in both IPSC and PPC and IDPA for about 15 years and yep you best have your head and ass wired and thats shooting at non-threatining targets, now add in the O shit factor from a charging bear. I want a bit more than a 9mm.

 

[BigLou]

an oldie but one of my favorites. The fun starts about 1:06. There may be alot of right answers to the OP's question, but it is interesting to think about the power of a S&W 500...even the muzzle blast repelling a very determined bear. For what its worth, I will tell you that I bought a 500 after my first brown bear encounter in 2012. The size of these critters is intimidating...