7mm REM Mag-No Dial Project

[Kjc103]

You have about the best hunting dialing scope around, however you choose not to dial……

Correct.

If it’s only a couple mills, I would just use the holdovers in the reticle.

That’s faster and simpler.

At least, that’s the idea.

 

[Kjc103]

And a great reticle for holdovers, yet he wants to play Kentucky windage (

I am familiar with “Kentucky windage” but that’s not relevant to the topic being discussed here.

 

[Kjc103]

I like my clicky scopes. What’s wrong with dialing?

Nothing!

However, holding stadia in the reticle is quicker. Usually limited to shorter ranges though.

I’m working out how far that range can reliably be pushed.

Also, I leave the SWFA capped. Less chance for the turret to get bumped.

 

[WCB]

Nothing!

However, holding stadia in the reticle is quicker. Usually limited to shorter ranges though.

I’m working out how far that range can reliably be pushed.

Also, I leave the SWFA capped. Less chance for the turret to get bumped.

So you just are going to holding using MILs on the reticle instead of dialing to 650yds then dial from there?

What the hell is the point of this post? That is literally why the MIL system is put into the reticle (along with range estimation).

 

[alexnelon]

Even within this idea, the 300 yard zero doesn't make sense. With a 100 yard zero, aiming high lungs is in the vitals to 300 anyway even without dialing or holding over.

You still have to hold over at 350+ so why worry about holding under from 0-300 (where probably 90% of your shots will be) just to save .5 mil at 450?

 

[WeiserBucks]

I started playing with the ballistics in my calculator

Have you ever shot far enough to need a calculator or is this all theoretical?

 

[TaperPin]

Even within this idea, the 300 yard zero doesn't make sense. With a 100 yard zero, aiming high lungs is in the vitals to 300 anyway even without dialing or holding over.

You still have to hold over at 350+ so why worry about holding under from 0-300 (where probably 90% of your shots will be) just to save .5 mil at 450?

Why wouldn’t someone simply hold a hand width low at 100 and 200 yards? A 300 yard zero doesn’t mean someone has to hold in the middle and hope for the best. A hand width gets the point of aim within an inch and everyone has a ruler on the end of their arms to judge what a hand width is so it’s not difficult.

 

[alexnelon]

Why wouldn’t someone simply hold a hand width low at 100 and 200 yards? A 300 yard zero doesn’t mean someone has to hold in the middle and hope for the best. A hand width gets the point of aim within an inch and everyone has a ruler on the end of their arms to judge what a hand width is so it’s not difficult.

Why is holding a hand low from 0-250 better than holding a hand high from 250-300?

 

[TaperPin]

Why is holding a hand low from 0-250 better than holding a hand high from 250-300?

In one afternoon it’s easy enough to teach a teenager to ring 10” plates from 100 to 400 yards with a 300 yard zero, and for adults it’s definitely the fastest way to ring all four plates as fast as the bolt can be worked.

Not to be a nit picker, but if you hold a hand width high with a 100 yard zero in the 7 mag it misses a 300 yard 10” vital zone completely. It also takes away the ability to easily judge 350 and 400 yard holds. With a 300 yard zero 350 is hand width high and 400 is either on he back of a mule deer or two hand widths high. Easy peazy.

 

[JGRaider]

In one afternoon it’s easy enough to teach a teenager to ring 10” plates from 100 to 400 yards with a 300 yard zero, and for adults it’s definitely the fastest way to ring all four plates as fast as the bolt can be worked.

Not to be a nit picker, but if you hold a hand width high with a 100 yard zero in the 7 mag it misses a 300 yard 10” vital zone completely. It also takes away the ability to easily judge 350 and 400 yard holds. With a 300 yard zero 350 is hand width high and 400 is either on he back of a mule deer or two hand widths high. Easy peazy.

That's why I said 3" high at 100 POI in my post. I lost track of the # of aoudad an deer I killed like that before rangefinders existed.

 

[Macintosh]

MPBR has a dozen hotly debated threads on this forum. It works, unequivocally. It also has unequivocal shortcomings, which increase as you push the range further. Some people manage this OK, lots cant, or at a minimum have an easier time doing things a different way (dialing). BUT, I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of the folks out there, even those who use a MPBR zero, would agree that 650 yards is WAY too far to push this.

Using reticle holdovers is also highly dependent on the reticle. Any reticle I've used that is precise enough to shoot reliably at 650 yards, is un-useable at short range (ie lowest magnification). That's a deal-breaker for me. With a reticle I can use well at low magnification, I am not able to be precise enough past 350-400 yards. That range might change a bit if all I shot was elk, but deer-sized critters is mostly what's on the menu for me.

My opinion is based on the combination of factors involved, not becasue its impossible, becasue its a series of tradeoffs when you consider all the shots you might take. IMO for general purpose hunting, regardless of how you deal with 250-400 yards, past there just about everyone I've ever shot with is better off dialing.

 

[wind gypsy]

If you shot much at 650 yards i dont think you'd be so quick to dismiss wind.

 

[alexnelon]

Not to be a nit picker, but if you hold a hand width high with a 100 yard zero in the 7 mag it misses a 300 yard 10” vital zone completely.

This thread is about a 150 eldx at 3300 fps, not a 150 psp at 2950. Holding a half mil ("a hand") at 300 is well within the vitals with that load.

 

[TaperPin]

This thread is about a 150 eldx at 3300 fps, not a 150 psp at 2950. Holding a half mil ("a hand") at 300 is well within the vitals with that load.

You’re right. 3” low, but definitely in there close enough.

 

[Pharmseller]

If your target is far enough away that you have to click, you’re probably laying down anyway, so you have time to clicky click.

But that’s just me.

I use the 162 ELDX in a 7mm Rem Mag, almost 3k at the muzzle.

 

[wind gypsy]

Correct.

If it’s only a couple mills, I would just use the holdovers in the reticle.

That’s faster and simpler.

At least, that’s the idea.

It's not faster and simpler though. Maybe if you're holding exactly on 0.5 or 1.5 but must holds you're going spend just as much time trying to figure out where to hold with your imprecise aiming point as you would to put a few clicks in the scope. Simpler is holding the crosshairs in the middle where you want to hit.

Further, the diamonds in the mil-quad are 0.2 mil tall by 0.4 mil wide thick. That's roughly 4.7" tall and 9.4" wide @ 650 yards. Not exactly a precise aiming point.

 

[Thegman]

Why is holding a hand low from 0-250 better than holding a hand high from 250-300?

The advantage I see is that for shooting without dialing, a 300 yard zero keeps the bullet in vitals much further out than a 100 yard zero.

With a 100 yard zero, the bullet drops out of the vital zone much closer in and very quickly requires more than just a "hand width" of estimation.

I've used a 3" high @ 100 (280 yard zero) on my 308s and 30-06s for years. I have reticle dots for further shots, if needed, but for me, they very rarely are.

I guess I should add for the OP, I don't think what I'm doing for 0 - 325 or so yards is practical much further out. Reticle dots or hash marks you're pre-familiar with would be needed further out if you're not dialing, but I think that's what you're saying.

 

[wind gypsy]

The advantage I see is that for shooting without dialing, a 300 yard zero keeps the bullet in vitals much further out than a 100 yard zero.

With a 100 yard zero, the bullet drops out of the vital zone much closer in and very quickly requires more than just a "hand width" of estimation.

I've used a 3" high @ 100 (280 yard zero) on my 308s and 30-06s for years. I have reticle dots for further shots, if needed, but for me, they very rarely are.

I guess I should add for the OP, I don't think what I'm doing for 0 - 325 or so yards is practical much further out. Reticle dots or hash marks you're pre-familiar with would be needed further out if you're not dialing, but I think that's what you're saying.

Theoretically in the vitals but if holding dead on in the more common 1-200 yard shots if you hold directly on desired POI the POA is already at edge of vitals on deer sized game. If the load in the OP's case would be 3" high @100 he'd be over 4" off at one point before getting to zero.

The main problem with how most people think about MPBR is they think of it as if the rifle/ammo/shooter are a 0 MOA system. In reality they are likely a greater than 2 MOA system so you can add another MOA+ to the error in POA/POI discrepancy for good shooters.

 

[Thegman]

Theoretically in the vitals but if holding dead on in the more common 1-200 yard shots if you hold directly on desired POI the POA is already at edge of vitals on deer sized game. If the load in the OP's case would be 3" high @100 he'd be over 4" off at one point before getting to zero.

Yeah. Definitely helps to be mindful of a lower hold in the 100 - 225 or so range, although I haven't been enough times to know that works too.

This is one of the last black bears I took with my 308 before starting to build my UL-UL rifles. He was right at 200 yards up the mountain and I was distinctly conscious of using a slightly low hold. It did work perfectly fwiw.

As an aside, I think your point on wind calls being more important for further ranges where dots/hashes might work for holdover is super important. Wind introduces way more variables for holds than distance.

 

[Macintosh]

^^exactly. You dont have much error budget left when you have most of your error budget built-in. It sounds great on paper, but the reality is usually very different when you push it far. No one I've ever shot with can reliably do any better than 1.5moa groups under the absolute best of hunting conditions, even prone. Add in any sort of position less stable than prone, add in even a small angle or ranging error, and people are even worse...2moa effective precision sounds bad but I'd bet money few people can even do that reliably. I certainly cant always do that. That's already an 8" group at 400 yards. It doesnt leave hardly any room for your impact to be 3 or 4" low by design...half the time it may help you or not matter, the other half the time it puts you well outside the kill zone. I know some people manage this by manually holding on top of their built-in elevation offset, but that takes a lot of practice, and even the most extreme of those folks isnt pushing this too far past 400 yards.