7mm Rem Mag elk rifle

[ARK_Ginger]

Kinetic Energy is the potential to do work, it doesn’t represent how the work is done, or accurately describe size of would channel/ tissue destruction/ penetration. .

Thank you I was looking for a good way to say that.

Also from now on I will refer to the terminal damage a bullet is achieving in units of horsepower

 

[seand]

That would be odd.

 

[svivian]

Rokslide is in luck.... looking in my field I have a few sickly old looking horses that probably wont make it through the winter for you guys to beat on.

Good luck OP I think you are on the right track with your bullet and caliber choice.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I haven’t seen that elk are “tough”. Shoot them in the chest, they die.

The issue is that “energy” isn’t a wounding mechanism. It tells you absolutely nothing about how deep, how wide, or the overall shape of the wound a bullet will create. Destroyed tissue kills, to measure that destroyed tissue you measure the wound channel.

If a 6mm and a 7RM create the exact same size hole in an animal, how is the 7RM “better”? And to be perfectly clear, it is entirely possible for a 6mm to match most 7mm projectiles.

I'd have to echo this for sure. Been killing elk for a long time now, the whole "elk are tough" thing is just plain not true from what I've seen. Shoot a bullet into their chest and they die. Well placed shots kill, not "high energy high BC bullets". Learn to shoot if you want to kill.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Let just assess for a minute that is not shoulder you are passing through. Would it pass through shoulder at 80 ft/lb,aube maybe not, but to prove a point let's say no. Now assuming quality enough components to to handle it, let's say that 80 ft/lb broadhead (or bullet) would not pass through, if you increase the energy enough, assuming it can hold together, it will. So again, energy is king when all else is equal...is it not? If not, why not?

A .22 LR can have more than double the energy of a broadhead. It probably doesn't kill as well.

If you look at the formula for kinetic energy (KE=1/2*m*v^2), it squares the velocity meaning you get more energy by bumping up speed instead of mass.

Thinking about the above, you can do mental exercises with 12 gauge shotgun slugs, appropriate hunting handguns with big heavy and slow bullets with small fast bullets.... look at pics, whatever you want and you see that energy is not really king. It's not an indication of tissue damage.

 

[TheViking]

I'd have to echo this for sure. Been killing elk for a long time now, the whole "elk are tough" thing is just plain not true from what I've seen. Shoot a bullet into their chest and they die. Well placed shots kill, not "high energy high BC bullets". Learn to shoot if you want to kill.

Second this as well.

A hunting buddy uses a 338 and 225 grain bullets. He leaves softball size holes on he backside and is proud of hell of it. Also wastes a ton of meat.

I like a smaller, well constructed bullet, placed in the right spot. They die just as dead, and doesn’t waste nearly as much meat.

 

[Vandy321]

You guys have convinced me. I'll just take a .22lr next time. Afterall, it can penetrate to the lungs just fine...its all about shot placement, right?

A .22 LR can have more than double the energy of a broadhead. It probably doesn't kill as well.

If you look at the formula for kinetic energy (KE=1/2*m*v^2), it squares the velocity meaning you get more energy by bumping up speed instead of mass.

Thinking about the above, you can do mental exercises with 12 gauge shotgun slugs, appropriate hunting handguns with big heavy and slow bullets with small fast bullets.... look at pics, whatever you want and you see that energy is not really king. It's not an indication of tissue damage.

You're gaslighting. A 12ga shotguns energy...at 800 yards? Yeah, none. On the other hand, a 7RM at 800 or a 6mm at 800 with say Barnes TTSX...are you really going to tell me that you'd take the 6mm?

 

[h2so4]

Rokslide is in luck.... looking in my field I have a few sickly old looking horses that probably wont make it through the winter for you guys to beat on.

Good luck OP I think you are on the right track with your bullet and caliber choice.

Maybe you could let these guys use those horses to measure wound channels at 650 yards with a 6cm and 7rm. Oh, and don’t forget the .223 TMK for the king of all bullets.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

You guys have convinced me. I'll just take a .22lr next time. Afterall, it can penetrate to the lungs just fine...its all about shot placement, right?

You're gaslighting. A 12ga shotguns energy...at 800 yards? Yeah, none. On the other hand, a 7RM at 800 or a 6mm at 800 with say Barnes TTSX...are you really going to tell me that you'd take the 6mm?

Not at all gaslighting.

Turn your point around though..... 12 gauge slug or 7mm mag at 20 yards, which do you think is going to do more damage?

Energy doesn't tell you what the ability to kill is. If it did, 22lr would be better than a bow for killing large game, but it ain't.

Energy is a useless measurement for bullet performance. It overemphasizes velocity when compared to mass and doesn't really tell you how much tissue damage resulting in bleed out going to happen.

If you think about the math, you could take a 36gn .22 LR bullet and just speed it up to where it has more energy than a 7mm RM. It'll either zip through the animal or disintegrate on impact.

It's just way more complicated than speed. So many variables. The only way to know is to actually do and compare results...... Form has quite a few pictures of results.

 

[Vandy321]

Not at all gaslighting.

Turn your point around though..... 12 gauge slug or 7mm mag at 20 yards, which do you think is going to do more damage?

Energy doesn't tell you what the ability to kill is. If it did, 22lr would be better than a bow for killing large game, but it ain't.

Energy is a useless measurement for bullet performance. It overemphasizes velocity when compared to mass and doesn't really tell you how much tissue damage resulting in bleed out going to happen.

If you think about the math, you could take a 36gn .22 LR bullet and just speed it up to where it has more energy than a 7mm RM. It'll either zip through the animal or disintegrate on impact.

It's just way more complicated than speed. So many variables. The only way to know is to actually do and compare results...... Form has quite a few pictures of results.

Agreed, far far too many variables in the arguement, wo lets simplify it...

the 6mm 85gr ELDX at 3000 fps is impacting at 800 yards with the same speed (roughly) as a 162gr ELDX from a 7RM at 2700 fps...somewhere around 1200fps at impact. Those numbers are from 4dof at 8600ft elev. That being said, are you going to trust the bullet with 600 ft/lb of energy left (the 6mm) or the bullet with double that (the 7RM) to get the job done?

Are you really trying to tell me based on the scenario above the 6mm will be the more efficient killer? I highly, highly doubt it.

Energy is king.

 

[HaydenLane]

6XC, 20” barrel. The 108gr ELD-M’s are very good in tissue.

Form, any experience with 110 on A-Tips on game? I’m mostly curious how the new 109 ELD-M will perform. Supposedly A-tip construction with a polymer tip.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, any experience with 110 on A-Tips on game? I’m mostly curious how the new 109 ELD-M will perform. Supposedly A-tip construction with a polymer tip.

The 110gr A-Tips tend to be extreme fragmenters, however there is variation lot to lot. For that reason I don’t really suggest them for most anymore. The 109gr ELD-M is a plastic tip ELD-M with the form factor of an A-Tip. It’ll have identical performance to the 108gr ELD-M.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Agreed, far far too many variables in the arguement, wo lets simplify it...

the 6mm 85gr ELDX at 3000 fps is impacting at 800 yards with the same speed (roughly) as a 162gr ELDX from a 7RM at 2700 fps...somewhere around 1200fps at impact. Those numbers are from 4dof at 8600ft elev. That being said, are you going to trust the bullet with 600 ft/lb of energy left (the 6mm) or the bullet with double that (the 7RM) to get the job done?

Are you really trying to tell me based on the scenario above the 6mm will be the more efficient killer? I highly, highly doubt it.

Energy is king.

At 1200fps neither of those bullets will reliably expand regardless of the energy difference leaving ice-pick wounds at best. So maybe bullet construction is king

 

[Vandy321]

At 1200fps neither of those bullets will reliably expand regardless of the energy difference leaving ice-pick wounds at best. So maybe bullet construction is king

Maybe not, those numbers were to show the dif in energy at range. But interesting you mention that. Hornady recommends 1700ft/lb of energy for expansion of the eldx. At those same environmental and speeds, the 6mm has 1724 ft/lb at 50 yards (3000 fps from the muzzle) ...so not even meeting the min suggested for expansion at 100 yards. The 7RM carries that 1700ft/lb with it at 600 yards (2750fps from the muzzle).

So unless you shoot everything at 50 yards in the trees, energy is king.

 

[PNWGATOR]

‘Energy is king’. Lol

In terms of effective terminal ballistics, energy is irrelevant.

 

[Vandy321]

‘Energy is king’. Lol

In terms of effective terminal ballistics, energy is irrelevant.

A minimum ammount of energy is required to even initiate penetration through a rib or shoulder. And as mentioned above, to initiate expansion. That's a scientific fact. If the bullet doesn't have that energy left at impact, there is no terminal anything.

This isn't ballistic gel brother.

Energy is king. I can do this all day.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

‘Energy is king’. Lol

In terms of effective terminal ballistics, energy is irrelevant.

Exactly. You don’t know what you don’t know. Repeating something that isn’t true over and over again doesn’t make it true.

 

[Vandy321]

Exactly. You don’t know what you don’t know. Repeating something that isn’t true over and over again doesn’t make it true.

Come on back with some data that proves a bullet without the proper ammount of energy will penetrate and expanded vs ricochet or pencil.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Agreed, far far too many variables in the arguement, wo lets simplify it...

the 6mm 85gr ELDX at 3000 fps is impacting at 800 yards with the same speed (roughly) as a 162gr ELDX from a 7RM at 2700 fps...somewhere around 1200fps at impact. Those numbers are from 4dof at 8600ft elev. That being said, are you going to trust the bullet with 600 ft/lb of energy left (the 6mm) or the bullet with double that (the 7RM) to get the job done?

Are you really trying to tell me based on the scenario above the 6mm will be the more efficient killer? I highly, highly doubt it.

Energy is king.

Nope. Not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is:
"Energy does not equal ability to kill. It really isn't useful for that purpose."

 

[Vandy321]

Nope. Not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is:
"Energy does not equal ability to kill. It really isn't useful for that purpose."

How does a bullet expand without the energy to do so? No expansion, small wound channel. Will it kill penciling, sure, is that the best answer and most humane call not at all.