6mm and .223/5.56 ILLEGAL for big game in Alaska!

[omicron1792]

I’ve lost more animals to poor shots with rifles than I have with bows.


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Not sure that would hold up over a large data pool.

 

[Mike D Texas]

I don’t feel like it’s much of an argument. Assuming that you’re using the best options for both bullet and arrow, a 223, 22-250, 243, and 22 Creed are all far more devastating on tissue using standard expanding ammunition than a bow is using a broadhead.

A broadhead is going to be similar to a well expanding pistol round. Both affecting tissue with direct cutting and contact. They are about equal when placed appropriately.

The biggest thing that even makes this vaguely an argument are people taking poor, long shots, with a rifle caliber that might be a little marginal to begin with. Placement is off, and you see a bad outcome. If a rifle hunter with a smaller caliber never shot beyond standard bow distances, you wouldn’t hear stories of animals wounded. The other factor that complicates this is that bow hunters are usually the more experienced and patient of hunters. It’s already a biased group due to that with regard to talent and experience, which often leads to better placed shots due to more patience and better stalking.

But if you told someone in a life or death situation that they had one chance to make a kill on an animal at 50 yards and offered them a 223 with 62gr Barnes TTSX going 2900 fps or a compound bow with an Iron Will broadhead (or whatever your flavor is), what are you picking?

This seems pretty damn devastating to me.

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[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus. What’s the info on the pictures in post #85? Animal, bullet, impact velocity, entry/exit? Thanks.

Bull moose, 77gr TMK, 2,500’ish, both entry’s and exits are shown.

 

[yeti12]

Every time I read threads like this I just can't believe that people think monos kill better, arrows do more damage, match bullets blow up on shoulders, other rumors etc.... it's wild to discuss/argue week in and week out.

Pick any animal, shoot a heavy for caliber polymer tipped match bullet or a berger type variant with enough impact velocity and see what happens. Purposely aim for the shoulder if you want, it will make the damage caused much worse. A buddy of mine just shot an aggressive highland bull with a 223 and a tmk cause he was on the fence about them. Absolutely devastating, Like it is with every other animal 1800lbs and under.

 

[Weldor]

Many of these areas are so big and so remote they are almost without law enforcement. There might be a few wildlife troopers covering thousands of remote, roadless square miles.

That's most states, why have laws if you can't enforce them. I agree there are not enough Wardens.

 

[Weldor]

Bull moose, 77gr TMK, 2,500’ish, both entry’s and exits are shown.

Man that's plenty of damage! How much meat loss do you figure? I love my 6mm but it does destroy some meat.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

Every time I read threads like this I just can't believe that people think monos kill better, arrows do more damage, match bullets blow up on shoulders, other rumors etc.... it's wild to discuss/argue week in and week out.

Pick any animal, shoot a heavy for caliber polymer tipped match bullet or a berger type variant with enough impact velocity and see what happens. Purposely aim for the shoulder if you want, it will make the damage caused much worse. A buddy of mine just shot an aggressive highland bull with a 223 and a tmk cause he was on the fence about them. Absolutely devastating, Like it is with every other animal 1800lbs and under.

Coming from my experience with larger calibers (338 & 375) and short to midrange, I can say that monos have worked beautifully. I believe many have had similar experiences including 30 caliber cartridges. Within that context, I think very few of them have had bad experiences and aren’t likely to have a reason to change their thinking.

 

[ramblinman]

My favorite part about bringing ‘nuff gun is that it allows me that extra oomph for a box of shells a year guy that I am.

You get em a bit back and all that extry energy (say energy twice for emphasis) and knockdown power tips em over.

Big exits. You want two holes.

But it’s that extra 20thou bullet diameter that really knocks em down.

I go into AC value and buy the heaviest bullet I can find for my ‘06.. 220 is a start. Then punch em down.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

My favorite part about bringing ‘nuff gun is that it allows me that extra oomph for a box of shells a year guy that I am.

You get em a bit back and all that extry energy (say energy twice for emphasis) and knockdown power tips em over.

Big exits. You want two holes.

But it’s that extra 20thou bullet diameter that really knocks em down.

I go into AC value and buy the heaviest bullet I can find for my ‘06.. 220 is a start. Then punch em down.

Like this?

Edit: I know you were being fasecious



@mxgsfmdpx and his huge from 523 yards with a 22CM & 80 ELD-X.



And my Moose at 525 yards with a 6 CM & 112 Match Burner.

 

[ramblinman]

22cal? Bounces off.

Don’t you know they call em old Ironsides for a reason. Gotta step up to the mighty two for three. It’s way bigger then a two ta three. Chinese math. Works every time

 

[Vern400]

What do most professional guides say? If you ask them what caliber they want to see clients use for moose or Caribou or brown bear are they going to suggest a 223 or a 6.5 Grendel? Or are they likely to suggest something a little stiffer?

The base recommendation should come from a broad spectrum of people with extensive and statistically relevant first-hand knowledge. It should not come from anecdotal opinions from folks that have shot three or five or ten. The ideal answer rarely exists at the extreme low end or high end of the spectrum. And the base recommendation probably shouldn't consider who gets offended. It's about killing humanely and having a reasonable chance of recovering game.

My response would probably be the same if the minimum caliber was a 30-378 weatherby. Still, I don't really have a dog in the fight in Alaska.

The state I live in requires 22 caliber centerfire and handguns having over 500 ft lb of energy.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

What do most professional guides say? If you ask them what caliber they want to see clients use for moose or Caribou or brown bear are they going to suggest a 223 or a 6.5 Grendel? Or are they likely to suggest something a little stiffer?

The base recommendation should come from a broad spectrum of people with extensive and statistically relevant first-hand knowledge. It should not come from anecdotal opinions from folks that have shot three or five or ten. The ideal answer rarely exists at the extreme low end or high end of the spectrum. And the base recommendation probably shouldn't consider who gets offended. It's about killing humanely and having a reasonable chance of recovering game.

My response would probably be the same if the minimum caliber was a 30-378 weatherby. Still, I don't really have a dog in the fight in Alaska.

The state I live in requires 22 caliber centerfire and handguns having over 500 ft lb of energy.

It’s a race to the bottom, or rather a race to cartridges that are larger and larger. Why? Because people suck at shooting, especially a lot of guided clients. You think most of them are shooting 10 round groups, spotting their own impacts and putting hundreds of rounds a year through their guns?
They shoot big magnums with “tough” bullets and all the while don’t place them accurately. Rodeos ensue. Of course they are going to recommend, or even insist, on large magnum cartridges.

I know quite a few guides in Alaska and would not take any of their ballistic recommendations seriously, for myself, other than the few guides that are Rokslide members. Even still, none of them have even gone down to the effective .223/6mm cartridges that I know of, as their experience of seeing clients flail with large calibers has made it hard for them to wrap their heads around what many of us are doing.

 

[Ryan Avery]

It’s a race to the bottom, or rather a race to cartridges that are larger and larger. Why? Because people suck at shooting, especially a lot of guided clients. You think most of them are shooting 10 round groups, spotting their own impacts and putting hundreds of rounds a year through their guns?
They shoot big magnums with “tough” bullets and all the while don’t place them accurately. Rodeos ensue. Of course they are going to recommend, or even insist, on large magnum cartridges.

I know quite a few guides in Alaska and would not take any of their ballistic recommendations seriously, for myself, other than the few guides that are Rokslide members.

Most guides also suck at shooting and know even less about bullet construction. Telling them that my little 6mm with a dtac is going to produce a far better wound channel than a 200 grain mono is witchcraft to them.


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[Wyo_hntr]

Every time I read threads like this I just can't believe that people think monos kill better, arrows do more damage, match bullets blow up on shoulders, other rumors etc.... it's wild to discuss/argue week in and week out.

Fuddlore is an uphill battle for sure....

 

[ramblinman]

Most guides also suck at shooting.


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False. They guide. Guide boolets.



The more energy and knockdown power ya get, the better it punches through.

Two holes.

 

[PaulDogs]

It’s a race to the bottom, or rather a race to cartridges that are larger and larger. Why? Because people suck at shooting, especially a lot of guided clients. You think most of them are shooting 10 round groups, spotting their own impacts and putting hundreds of rounds a year through their guns?
They shoot big magnums with “tough” bullets and all the while don’t place them accurately. Rodeos ensue. Of course they are going to recommend, or even insist, on large magnum cartridges.

I know quite a few guides in Alaska and would not take any of their ballistic recommendations seriously, for myself, other than the few guides that are Rokslide members. Even still, none of them have even gone down to the effective .223/6mm cartridges that I know of, as their experience of seeing clients flail with large calibers has made it hard for them to wrap their heads around what many of us are doing.

So if I want to do a guided moose hunt someday, but don’t want to shoot a big bore, is the answer to look around until I find a guide who is okay with a 22/6mm? Or find one and try to convince him it would work

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

So if I want to do a guided moose hunt someday, but don’t want to shoot a big bore, is the answer to look around until I find a guide who is okay with a 22/6mm? Or find one and try to convince him it would work

Your on your own with that one

 

[ramblinman]

So if I want to do a guided moose hunt someday, but don’t want to shoot a big bore, is the answer to look around until I find a guide who is okay with a 22/6mm? Or find one and try to convince him it would work

Walk out into the bush off a plane and guide yourself

Or don’t tell them shit. Just shoot the moose and don’t worry about what some “guide” thinks. You are paying them. Not the other way around.

 

[Ryan Avery]

So if I want to do a guided moose hunt someday, but don’t want to shoot a big bore, is the answer to look around until I find a guide who is okay with a 22/6mm? Or find one and try to convince him it would work

I shot a couple of nilgai and giraffe with a 6mm. Both of the guides said I couldn’t. It doesn’t take much to convince them when your paying for the hunt.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Sometimes asking for forgiveness after the fact is way easier than asking for permission. I just did DIY here in AK on moose. So glad I didn’t have to have a “guide”.