.480 Ruger - Why didn’t it catch on?

[Marbles]

Seems to me there's a bit of a spectrum between a hunting-handgun cartridge, and one more optimal for defense. I think the big-bores shine when you have the initiative - when you're taking the shot at a time and place of your choosing. You'll still get pass-throughs well beyond 100yds on most game with them, broadside. Not sure I'd want to do that with even a 10mm from a handgun, let alone an EDC cartridge.

Defense wise though, relatively few bear attacks are absolutely out-of-the-blue ambushes measured in single-digit yards. My priority is balancing accuracy with speed - to hit an off-switch in the brain or to shred their nose/jaws/face. It's not landing just one or two deep, big, lethal hits that put a bear on a 15-45 second bleed-out death timer. I genuinely would rather have 4-10 9mm rounds out of my EDC in their face, brain, and spine than one 500 Linebaugh slug passing deep from shoulder to ass. If you've done any bill-drills with your EDC gun, you have a good idea of how many rounds you can get into an 8" circle in just a few seconds.

There's always a bit of "what-if" internet conjecture with something like this, but the one place in here where there's something of a crossover of interest, is that short-distance ambush. A situation where it might be contact-shot distances by the time I can clear the holster, or where getting mauled and slammed into the dirt and brush might make a semi-auto less optimal. Especially if one-handed shooting is necessary. That keeps bringing me back around to thinking of a 6rd 45LC Redhawk double-action as being a viable balance between all of these interests.

I think a 357 SA/DA revolver loaded mild is probably the best solution.

My complaint is weight. But something like the Smith and Wesson Nightguard with a 3 inch barrel is a nice compromise.

A 360PD with a steel cylinder and steel 3 inch barrel from the Model 60 3 inch and a full sized grip would be sweat loaded with 38+P as a light trail running gun.

The cheap solution would be the Model 60 3 inch and full sized grip. The Nightguard weighs about the same, but an extra two in the cylinder and a larger frame that should make it easier to handle.

The weight of my 454 Super Redhawk and 44 Mountain gun has me looking for alternatives. Both are fun to shoot, for a while I really wanted a Roger Redhawk converted to 475 Linebaugh by Bowen once I realized the 454 was enjoyable. It still sounds cool, but from a hunting perspective the 454 can do everything needed for about the same weight. From a bear defense perspective, it is already far more than is needed.

Which, in a round about way brings me back to the OPs question. A 475 Linebaugh is just cooler, and beyond cool points there is no good reason to go past a 454. For the guys who must have the? Biggest, the 480/475 is not big enough.

 

[ldmay375]

Looking into handgun calibers for hunting and bear defense and the .480 Ruger just seems absolutely perfect for most everything while still being relatively controllable.

Why is it not more successful?

As others have stated, I think marketing angle and timing did not help the 480 Ruger. Also in agreement that those that want the biggest baddest across the counter revolver go for the 500 S&W.

I am by no stretch a hand gun hunter, but I do like the 480 Ruger a bunch. I have it in single and double actions with various barrel lengths. It is not a super-magnum, and I think that is a plus. I like and have, revolvers in 44 Rem mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, and 500 S&W. The 500 S&W was a just because. The others I can rationalize / justify purpose for me.

Like vehicles, everyone has their ideal cartridges for task and pleasure. In similar to near identical revolvers in the other cartridges mentioned, I will normally pick a 480 Ruger. I guess in my case, the others are niche cartridges.

 

[PNWTO]

People always say that....

I bet I could get 3 good shots off with my 9mm for a magnums 1. And probably 9x for a magnums 2.

And generally for every hit you are going to get reaction that slows the bear .25-1 second which allows more lead dispensing time.

And all that is ignoring that ive never seen anyone that could shoot a double action trigger well.

Additionally, there is a good body of evidence suggesting that warning shots are fairly effective for big bears.

Warning shots (and misses) dramatically reduce the arcade tokens in a revolver vs a G21 or G20 with a 13-15rd mag.

More quarters for the game…

 

[Snowwolfe]

Shooters tend to forget that big bore handguns generally shoot bullets that penetrate the deepest when muzzle velocity is approximately 1000-1100 fps.
Of course this depends on the construction of the bullet its self but it is a good rule to go by.
A "bear" handgun doesn't have to be all about power. You want the bullet to penetrate to break down vitals. My next project is to play around with one of my semi auto 10mm's and try one of the solid copper bullets and see how they do. I used to think highly of the Hornady XTP's in the 10 until a friend of mine finished off a moose at point blank range and then discovered his 10/XTP combo only made it about 12 inches into the moose.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Seems to me there's a bit of a spectrum between a hunting-handgun cartridge, and one more optimal for defense. I think the big-bores shine when you have the initiative - when you're taking the shot at a time and place of your choosing. You'll still get pass-throughs well beyond 100yds on most game with them, broadside. Not sure I'd want to do that with even a 10mm from a handgun, let alone an EDC cartridge.

Defense wise though, relatively few bear attacks are absolutely out-of-the-blue ambushes measured in single-digit yards. My priority is balancing accuracy with speed - to hit an off-switch in the brain or to shred their nose/jaws/face. It's not landing just one or two deep, big, lethal hits that put a bear on a 15-45 second bleed-out death timer. I genuinely would rather have 4-10 9mm rounds out of my EDC in their face, brain, and spine than one 500 Linebaugh slug passing deep from shoulder to ass. If you've done any bill-drills with your EDC gun, you have a good idea of how many rounds you can get into an 8" circle in just a few seconds.

There's always a bit of "what-if" internet conjecture with something like this, but the one place in here where there's something of a crossover of interest, is that short-distance ambush. A situation where it might be contact-shot distances by the time I can clear the holster, or where getting mauled and slammed into the dirt and brush might make a semi-auto less optimal. Especially if one-handed shooting is necessary. That keeps bringing me back around to thinking of a 6rd 45LC Redhawk double-action as being a viable balance between all of these interests.

I almost never chip in on bear defense discussions, but if it's truly a self defense situation you don't want to be popping off rounds at 15 yards anyways. Ever seen the video of that russian guy with a double barrel shotgun and a fiesty griz that keeps bluffing? I think 5-10 yards is probably about the range you want to be firing. A good staged trigger double action shot with a revolver is very precise, and if there's time for single action it's as good as any semi auto for a single shot. Capacity arguments make a lot more sense for wolves. Not discrediting the 9mm, but if one hole from the .45 is displacing as much tissue as 2-3 9mm rounds...

 

[WoodlandCritter]

Shooters tend to forget that big bore handguns generally shoot bullets that penetrate the deepest when muzzle velocity is approximately 1000-1100 fps.
Of course this depends on the construction of the bullet its self but it is a good rule to go by.
A "bear" handgun doesn't have to be all about power. You want the bullet to penetrate to break down vitals. My next project is to play around with one of my semi auto 10mm's and try one of the solid copper bullets and see how they do. I used to think highly of the Hornady XTP's in the 10 until a friend of mine finished off a moose at point blank range and then discovered his 10/XTP combo only made it about 12 inches into the moose.

I put down an injured yearling buck with a 147gr 9mm XTP. Entered between the ear and eye on its left side, passed through the brain, and as near as I can tell it bounced off the opposite side jaw, breaking it but not passing through.

I still think the XTP is a good compromise bullet in areas where the risk of black bear attack is pretty even with the chance of tweaker attack. But for backcountry use I stick with 220gr hardcast in my 10mm.

 

[RockAndSage]

I almost never chip in on bear defense discussions, but if it's truly a self defense situation you don't want to be popping off rounds at 15 yards anyways. Ever seen the video of that russian guy with a double barrel shotgun and a fiesty griz that keeps bluffing? I think 5-10 yards is probably about the range you want to be firing. A good staged trigger double action shot with a revolver is very precise, and if there's time for single action it's as good as any semi auto for a single shot. Capacity arguments make a lot more sense for wolves. Not discrediting the 9mm, but if one hole from the .45 is displacing as much tissue as 2-3 9mm rounds...

I see what you're saying, there's sense there. I also have to disagree on a few points, at least from the point of view of my personal perspective on capability, vs what may be best for anyone else.

I'll say upfront that I'm not quite sure on the nature of your objection on 15yds vs 5-10...is it more about accuracy probability, or not shooting a bluffing bear until you're sure it's no longer bluffing?

On the bluffing vs charging thing, I'd have to be absolutely certain the bear was not charging in order to not shoot - it's not my responsibility to infer grizzly intent and the vagaries between a bluff charge and a charge with intent. More importantly, I don't have the experience or time in that context to make a determination.

Also, bears can run a lot faster than humans. Look into the Tueller Drill - it's meant to show you how far someone can get by the time you can draw and fire your gun once. Meant to show the dangers of someone "at distance" with a knife. On average, for trained law enforcement, someone can cover 7 yards by the time you can get your gun out and fire.

On the accuracy side of things, I suppose there's some room for debate on the ranges someone can or should be shooting with a given handgun. None of this is bragging, just baseline info for assessing what I'd want to carry: a single headshot at 15yds for me is a chip-shot with any of my EDC guns, in less than 1.5 seconds, from draw, OWB. I know I personally can pound 10 rounds out of my EDC into a 5 1/2" circle at 15 yards in less than 6 seconds, from draw, OWB. That's trying to be precise at speed, not throwing any shots outside the target, or just banging away with minimal sight-picture confirmation. I'm not sure I could even hit once with a DA revolver of any chambering at that distance, but would guess I could put 2 into a 5 1/2" circle in 6 seconds if shooting it single-action. I'm iffy at that distance with a DA semi-auto on DA. Never tried with an actual revolver, so I don't have the personal experience of repeatedly doing it, as I do with my EDC (9mm).

Regarding tissue displacement, I'm still leaning toward 9mm because of what I just shared - I'd rather have 1 9mm hit in the brain or face/nose/jaw than a 500 Linebaugh going from shoulder to ass. You need to have accuracy if you want to hit the instant off-switch on a predator.

All of this though...it's a good discussion on absolutely knowing your own personal capabilities with a given gun, through a lot of realistic and intense training, with pressure built in.

 

[Marbles]

I see what you're saying, there's sense there. I also have to disagree on a few points, at least from the point of view of my personal perspective on capability, vs what may be best for anyone else.

I'll say upfront that I'm not quite sure on the nature of your objection on 15yds vs 5-10...is it more about accuracy probability, or not shooting a bluffing bear until you're sure it's no longer bluffing?

On the bluffing vs charging thing, I'd have to be absolutely certain the bear was not charging in order to not shoot - it's not my responsibility to infer grizzly intent and the vagaries between a bluff charge and a charge with intent. More importantly, I don't have the experience or time in that context to make a determination.

Also, bears can run a lot faster than humans. Look into the Tueller Drill - it's meant to show you how far someone can get by the time you can draw and fire your gun once. Meant to show the dangers of someone "at distance" with a knife. On average, for trained law enforcement, someone can cover 7 yards by the time you can get your gun out and fire.

On the accuracy side of things, I suppose there's some room for debate on the ranges someone can or should be shooting with a given handgun. None of this is bragging, just baseline info for assessing what I'd want to carry: a single headshot at 15yds for me is a chip-shot with any of my EDC guns, in less than 1.5 seconds, from draw, OWB. I know I personally can pound 10 rounds out of my EDC into a 5 1/2" circle at 15 yards in less than 6 seconds, from draw, OWB. That's trying to be precise at speed, not throwing any shots outside the target, or just banging away with minimal sight-picture confirmation. I'm not sure I could even hit once with a DA revolver of any chambering at that distance, but would guess I could put 2 into a 5 1/2" circle in 6 seconds if shooting it single-action. I'm iffy at that distance with a DA semi-auto on DA. Never tried with an actual revolver, so I don't have the personal experience of repeatedly doing it, as I do with my EDC (9mm).

Regarding tissue displacement, I'm still leaning toward 9mm because of what I just shared - I'd rather have 1 9mm hit in the brain or face/nose/jaw than a 500 Linebaugh going from shoulder to ass. You need to have accuracy if you want to hit the instant off-switch on a predator.

All of this though...it's a good discussion on absolutely knowing your own personal capabilities with a given gun, through a lot of realistic and intense training, with pressure built in.

I agree, but my my uneducated take on a few points.

A bear wounded in a bluff charge might decide it is no longer bluffing. If shoot, make it count.

A charging bear can easily be doing 35 mph, 51 feet per second or 17 yards a second.

The first shot should be fired at a range where it will be in the brain. You figure a 0.4 second split and you get two shots at 15-20 yards, so can be reasonable depending on the shooter. Once inside whatever distance limits the shooter to one shot, then better to hold fire for better odds of hitting the brain (a smaller target than the head) as it moves up and down.

Most shooters (not all) would be better off preparing for one close shot rather than hoping to be fast enough to get off multiple, as for most shooters trying for speed will cost them in regards to accuracy.

 

[RME]

I’m surprised

I agree, but my my uneducated take on a few points.

A bear wounded in a bluff charge might decide it is no longer bluffing. If shoot, make it count.

A charging bear can easily be doing 35 mph, 51 feet per second or 17 yards a second.

The first shot should be fired at a range where it will be in the brain. You figure a 0.4 second split and you get two shots at 15-20 yards, so can be reasonable depending on the shooter. Once inside whatever distance limits the shooter to one shot, then better to hold fire for better odds of hitting the brain (a smaller target than the head) as it moves up and down.

Most shooters (not all) would be better off preparing for one close shot rather than hoping to be fast enough to get off multiple, as for most shooters trying for speed will cost them in regards to accuracy.

Not a bear but reminds me of this classic lion charging video

 

[WoodlandCritter]

Ugh, loathe as I am to once again jump into a hypothetical bear defense argument;

Where does the idea that once a bear makes physical contact with you, you instantly die come from? Plenty of dudes have survived maulings. As long as you manage to hold onto your pistol when it knocks you down, you still have time to keep mag (or cylinder) dumping into it, even if its chewing on you. I'm sticking with 15 rounds of 10mm, every time.

I suspect that very few succesful defensive pistol use cases against bears involved the guy making a perfect 0.75" draw and braining the thing with it sliding in dead at his feet without a scratch on the human. Seems a little too storybook.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

I see what you're saying, there's sense there. I also have to disagree on a few points, at least from the point of view of my personal perspective on capability, vs what may be best for anyone else.

I'll say upfront that I'm not quite sure on the nature of your objection on 15yds vs 5-10...is it more about accuracy probability, or not shooting a bluffing bear until you're sure it's no longer bluffing?

On the bluffing vs charging thing, I'd have to be absolutely certain the bear was not charging in order to not shoot - it's not my responsibility to infer grizzly intent and the vagaries between a bluff charge and a charge with intent. More importantly, I don't have the experience or time in that context to make a determination.

Also, bears can run a lot faster than humans. Look into the Tueller Drill - it's meant to show you how far someone can get by the time you can draw and fire your gun once. Meant to show the dangers of someone "at distance" with a knife. On average, for trained law enforcement, someone can cover 7 yards by the time you can get your gun out and fire.

On the accuracy side of things, I suppose there's some room for debate on the ranges someone can or should be shooting with a given handgun. None of this is bragging, just baseline info for assessing what I'd want to carry: a single headshot at 15yds for me is a chip-shot with any of my EDC guns, in less than 1.5 seconds, from draw, OWB. I know I personally can pound 10 rounds out of my EDC into a 5 1/2" circle at 15 yards in less than 6 seconds, from draw, OWB. That's trying to be precise at speed, not throwing any shots outside the target, or just banging away with minimal sight-picture confirmation. I'm not sure I could even hit once with a DA revolver of any chambering at that distance, but would guess I could put 2 into a 5 1/2" circle in 6 seconds if shooting it single-action. I'm iffy at that distance with a DA semi-auto on DA. Never tried with an actual revolver, so I don't have the personal experience of repeatedly doing it, as I do with my EDC (9mm).

Regarding tissue displacement, I'm still leaning toward 9mm because of what I just shared - I'd rather have 1 9mm hit in the brain or face/nose/jaw than a 500 Linebaugh going from shoulder to ass. You need to have accuracy if you want to hit the instant off-switch on a predator.

All of this though...it's a good discussion on absolutely knowing your own personal capabilities with a given gun, through a lot of realistic and intense training, with pressure built in.

And you shoot a lot more than I do by far…

I’d love to know how shootable your +p+ 9mm load are vs say a 4” barreled smith and Wesson 44 special shooting 250 gr hardcasts at 950fps if you trained the same volume.

 

[Marbles]

Ugh, loathe as I am to once again jump into a hypothetical bear defense argument;

Where does the idea that once a bear makes physical contact with you, you instantly die come from? Plenty of dudes have survived maulings. As long as you manage to hold onto your pistol when it knocks you down, you still have time to keep mag (or cylinder) dumping into it, even if its chewing on you. I'm sticking with 15 rounds of 10mm, every time.

I suspect that very few succesful defensive pistol use cases against bears involved the guy making a perfect 0.75" draw and braining the thing with it sliding in dead at his feet without a scratch on the human. Seems a little too storybook.

You practice braced point shooting?

First goal is to avoid physical contact as that gives you the best chance of coming out uninjured and the best opportunity to put rounds where it matters, but you are creating a straw man as no one but you has suggested the above is how things go. If the human has no awareness of the bear until your 0.75" the human is loosing.

Absolutely plan to keep fighting after contact, but people are frequently grabed by the head and shaken so hard laced shoes come off. There may be no holding on to that pistol. A lanyard is a good idea (no I don't currently use one).

Of course, at least two people have successfully fought off browns/griz with a knife that I'm aware of in the past 30 years, so you never really know. The 10 mm isn't wrong, nor is it right, it is just one choice of tool. Same for a revolver. Match your tool to your skill and temperament. Hope for some warning, don't be dumb in how you move through country. Some of it will be plain luck.

 

[RockAndSage]

And you shoot a lot more than I do by far…

I’d love to know how shootable your +p+ 9mm load are vs say a 4” barreled smith and Wesson 44 special shooting 250 gr hardcasts at 950fps if you trained the same volume.

That's a really good question. It would be fun to go through a serious training evolution with a good woods revolver. Would probably learn a lot more broadly with shooting, too...

This inadvertently turned into one of the better bear-attack convos I've come across. Lots of good info and food for thought.

 

[RockAndSage]

I’d love to know how shootable your +p+ 9mm load are vs say a 4” barreled smith and Wesson 44 special shooting 250 gr hardcasts at 950fps

Hot 9mm defensive loads, even +P+, are basically just a little snappier/thumpier in how they resonate into your hand through the gun. A polymer frame mitigates a lot of that. Even the extra muzzle rise is fairly negligible compared to moving up a chambering, like to a .40 S&W.

The biggest difference in shootability comes from the gun design more than the cartridge, up to the point where the cartridge is recoiling enough to start inducing anticipation or flinch. That said, I'd have no problem carrying a .44 Special in the woods. I'd absolutely take that over a 9mm revolver.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Hot 9mm defensive loads, even +P+, are basically just a little snappier/thumpier in how they resonate into your hand through the gun. A polymer frame mitigates a lot of that. Even the extra muzzle rise is fairly negligible compared to moving up a chambering, like to a .40 S&W.

The biggest difference in shootability comes from the gun design more than the cartridge, up to the point where the cartridge is recoiling enough to start inducing anticipation or flinch. That said, I'd have no problem carrying a .44 Special in the woods. I'd absolutely take that over a 9mm revolver.

So you’d say 9mm doesn’t induce shot anticipation? Genuinely curious here, btw. Not looking to pick a fight. I’m mostly a bow hunter who likes shooting a .44 magnum for fun. My limited 9mm semiauto experience has been that I just don’t like the way the slide clacks around.

I’d say the shot anticipation of a 9mm or a 30-06 is far less than shooting a traditional bow on a target panic day.

 

[WoodlandCritter]

You practice braced point shooting?

First goal is to avoid physical contact as that gives you the best chance of coming out uninjured and the best opportunity to put rounds where it matters, but you are creating a straw man as no one but you has suggested the above is how things go. If the human has no awareness of the bear until your 0.75" the human is loosing.

Absolutely plan to keep fighting after contact, but people are frequently grabed by the head and shaken so hard laced shoes come off. There may be no holding on to that pistol. A lanyard is a good idea (no I don't currently use one).

Of course, at least two people have successfully fought off browns/griz with a knife that I'm aware of in the past 30 years, so you never really know. The 10 mm isn't wrong, nor is it right, it is just one choice of tool. Same for a revolver. Match your tool to your skill and temperament. Hope for some warning, don't be dumb in how you move through country. Some of it will be plain luck.

Hyperbole is not a strawman and 0.75" refers to seconds, not inches.

 

[Steve300xcw]

I just don’t like the way the slide clacks around.

Thats a gun thing there. Some feel very different that others

 

[Steve300xcw]

But since every stupid thread about a pistol turns into a debate about blood thirsty saber tooth bears.

I really gotta wonder out of all the opinions out there. How many have actually used a pistol in that situation? How many have even seen a blood thirsty saber toothed bear?

 

[RockAndSage]

So you’d say 9mm doesn’t induce shot anticipation? Genuinely curious here, btw. Not looking to pick a fight. I’m mostly a bow hunter who likes shooting a .44 magnum for fun. My limited 9mm semiauto experience has been that I just don’t like the way the slide clacks around.

I’d say the shot anticipation of a 9mm or a 30-06 is far less than shooting a traditional bow on a target panic day.

It's more like bigger recoil amplifies anticipation, especially when that recoil results in increasing levels of actual pain. But it can come from shooting anything though, even like with the relatively silent, recoil-free bow you're talking about. Anticipation itself is more about the perceived consequences going around in your brain, keeping you from being clear-minded and in-the-moment. Things like a trophy animal, or the last shot in an otherwise perfect string of shots, tend to amplify it a lot more than a culling shot or the first round in a string. It's about what you're making it mean. Add in painful recoil, and that's like throwing an exponent onto that mental equation.

Edit: Each level of additional recoil and muzzle blast seems to require an additional level of mental focus and concentration to keep clear and in-the-moment. Going from 9mm 147 HSTs to 115gr +P+ is a noticeable but negligible change. But going from 9mm to a 475 Linebaugh requires a heck of a lot more concentration and focus on the fundamentals and being in the moment to make the same quality of a shot.

 

[3gunyotehtr]

One thing to consider, when a bear has you down and is chewing on you, at least a revolver doesn't have a slide to disengage and make your shooting iron inoperable if you have to shoot with the muzzle pushed into him!