300 RUM vs 7MM Rem or 28 Nosler

[ckleeves]

Yes the 300 win of mine that was a solid 3035 fps / 215 for years was a 28". Brass went 15X firings and rifle still shot .2's and .3's after 1500 rounds.

I have seen a couple barrels go 3K and one 2980 from a 26". Those were with H-1000. I loaded up the 28" rifle and did a ladder test with VV N-570 and it maxed at 3100 with a 215. Node was wide and accuracy was great. That old rifle was chambered with a PTG Tactical Match reamer. However I feel this reamer we have offered to others on my site is superior. 300 Win Reamer for 215



Brass will play a large part too. We are testing the Peterson and also the ADG brass. My best velocities have always been with Lapua 300 win brass. Yes I have a stash, not for sale of course.

EDIT to add: most barrels on the 300 win mag will gain 22 to 25 fps per inch from 22" to 30". And as with all barrels some are faster than others. The Broughtons have shown good velocity for me so far. The Harts are a close second.

Thanks
Jeff

Interesting, thanks. That’s the reamer we’re using. I’m pretty sure lapua 300 wm brass is made by Norma as far as I know lapua never has actually made any belted mags. I’m interested in how that Peterson brass will do. Looks like it could be a good option if it holds up.


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[Broz]

Interesting, thanks. That’s the reamer we’re using. I’m pretty sure lapua 300 wm brass is made by Norma as far as I know lapua never has actually made any belted mags. I’m interested in how that Peterson brass will do. Looks like it could be a good option if it holds up.


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This is true , Norma made it to Lapua's requested specs. But trust me this brass is tuffer that Norma 300 win brass we buy today.

Jeff

 

[luke moffat]

Jeff, I said big 300 from the start! We are arguing with someone that has never taken a long-range shot at an elk. So basically we arguing with ourselves. I am offended! Because this was a waste of time.



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Haha it wasn’t all for nothing.....I am not one to argue with those that have more experience than myself. You guys have convinced me that when my 7 wsm barrel is burned up it will be coming back as a 1:9 twist .308 win so I can shoot 215s for more consistent quick kills.

 

[elkguide]

Jeff, I said big 300 from the start! We are arguing with someone that has never taken a long-range shot at an elk. So basically we arguing with ourselves. I am offended! Because this was a waste of time.

While some people just like to disagree, I did enjoy the calm, knowledgeable and experience based responses. Now I am probably not the one to get into this discussion because after a few years of working as an elk guide, I traded off my big 7's. I do like the .284 caliber and still have a couple .284's and .280's, for deer, but when it comes to any long shot, on deer or elk, I too want a boring old .30 caliber.

Thanks for the discussion and points well taken.

 

[brushape]

How about creedmoorE with a 143 eldx? I hear they are good on any game to 2000 yards


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[Jordan Smith]

How many elk have you shot at long range?
600 yards plus?

I only ask because this is the long range forum?



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Ryan,

Just curious how many elk you've shot with your 28? I'm guessing it's quite a few to have come to such a firm, universal position about .30 vs 7mm terminal performance.

And for the record, it doesn't matter whether the elk are shot at LR or not. The terminal performance of a .308 vs a 7-08 is like a .300WM vs a 28 Nosler several hundred meters further out. Impact velocity matters, it's not just caliber that determines an animal's reaction to the shot.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Didn't say she wasn't going to die. But IMO she lived way too long. There was a pinhole on one side of the lung and quarter size hole on the other side, the off side lung was jelly. She ran/trotted about 400 yards after the first shot. I was going to take pictures of the wound channel but had to call the fish & game on some knuckleheads chasing elk with a UTV and lost my focus I guess.

I saw the same kind of thing happen to my buddy with an old rocket steelhead(I think that's what it was called) out of a bow. But the elk went a lot father with holes in both lungs. The only reason we found that bull is because it coughed a few times while it was running.


In the end, I give two shits what you use... Just passing on my experiences. I have zero reasons to come on my forum and BS people.

Sounds like you needed to be using a more fragile bullet. IME the 195 holds together a bit better than the lighter Bergers...

 

[Ryan Avery]

Ryan,

Just curious how many elk you've shot with your 28? I'm guessing it's quite a few to have come to such a firm, universal position about .30 vs 7mm terminal performance.

And for the record, it doesn't matter whether the elk are shot at LR or not. The terminal performance of a .308 vs a 7-08 is like a .300WM vs a 28 Nosler several hundred meters further out. Impact velocity matters, it's not just caliber that determines an animal's reaction to the shot.

Distance doesn't matter is complete BS!

Shot two, witnessed four. It was enough.


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[Ryan Avery]

Jordan, we've been down this road. I really don't care what you have to say. You're an epic .284 Leg humper and pointless to argue with.


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[Jordan Smith]

If you want to call out what you perceive as a "Blanket statement" then you are going to have to stop using old data, tilting the playing field, and stop saying the 7 has superior external Ballistics. When you pump them both up to max, with today's available bullets, the big 30's win in all aspects especially when you go way out there and look at energy. Yes, this is the long range forum.

Jeff

Jeff,

Where are you getting your numbers? The 7mm 180 ELD has a BC of 0.796 and can be launched from a lowly 7WSM at about 3200 fps with a 30" barrel. Even from a 26" barrel it's going just under 3100. I'm unaware of any .308" mass-produced bullet with a BC value that high, let alone something that can be pushed to over 3000 with a sane load in a .300WM. Even the 195 Berger with a 0.755 BC is higher than any .308" bullet I've seen.

I also checked QL to get a pressure estimate on a .300RUM pushing a 230 at 3200. Let's just say that the top-performing powder gets between 2900 and 2950 fps with a 26" barrel and a limit of 64k psi. A 30" barrel boosts that to just over 3000 fps. Using N570 and a 30" barrel, it would take 80k psi to hit 3200 fps.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Distance doesn't matter is complete BS!

Shot two, witnessed four. It was enough.


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Fair enough, but even you must admit that's not a large enough sample to make any concrete statements about terminal performance.

I'm not saying distance doesn't matter when it comes to terminal performance, I'm saying that if you're comparing the terminal performance between two calibers, you could use any distance for the comparison, and you'd see a similar trend. I've seen elk, moose, caribou, and other critters killed with .300WM, 7RM, .308, and 7-08, and I've just not seen this observable difference in how fast animals drop between them. If the bullet hits the right place and performs as designed, tough animals run a bit and less tough ones drop right there. There are too many variables at play- impact velocity, bullet design and performance, individual animal toughness and will to live, bullet placement, etc, for me to make any concrete statements about caliber alone between 7mm and .308".

 

[Jordan Smith]

Jordan, we've been down this road. I really don't care what you have to say. You're an epic .284 Leg humper and pointless to argue with.


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Ad Hominem attacks aren't an effective way to make your point...

I'm not epic and I don't hump any legs- I'm just not into the American ".30 cal is the best eva! MERICA!" mentality that some guys buy into.
But if you have any solid answers or rebuttals to what I've said, I'm happy to hear you out and concede any points you make that are supported by solid, empirical evidence. I find anecdotal evidence somewhat unconvincing.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Jordan, you said before you hadn't witnessed that many long range elk kills(600 plus) How are you coming to these finding?


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[Ryan Avery]

Ad Hominem attacks aren't an effective way to make your point...

I'm not epic and I don't hump any legs- I'm just not into the American ".30 cal is the best eva! MERICA!" mentality that some guys buy into.
But if you have any solid answers or rebuttals to what I've said, I'm happy to hear you out and concede any points you make that are supported by solid, empirical evidence. I find anecdotal evidence somewhat unconvincing.

Those are big words! Had to google them. The 30 cal is not the best ever. We all know a big 338 is.

There is no way to prove it. But if you pay attention, pattern start to emerge.

How about you go out and do it yourself at LR with both calibers then give me you feedback.


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[Ironman]

Haha it wasn’t all for nothing.....I am not one to argue with those that have more experience than myself. You guys have convinced me that when my 7 wsm barrel is burned up it will be coming back as a 1:9 twist .308 win so I can shoot 215s for more consistent quick kills.

Heck yeah Luke! Top that puppy off with one of those IOR Valdada Terminators with a 40mm tube and 100moa adjustment and you could really stretch the legs out on that .308. Heck, you may even be able to reach out there and knock the dust off of one those Eurasian elk you guys have up there.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Jordan, you said before you hadn't witnessed that many long range elk kills(600 plus) How are you coming to these finding?


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We have far fewer elk up here than you do down there, so the majority of my experience has been with other species- moose, MD, WT, bear, caribou, sheep, antelope, etc. There are some elk kills at LR mixed in there as well, but there's really nothing all that special about elk. So my opinions come from witnessing lots of animals of all sorts of species, killed at LR and SR with various calibers and chamberings. Elk can be tough, but so can a variety of other species, and they die just like anything else when you destroy the heart and lungs. This is based on my own experience, as well as that of guys that I trust with a ton of elk killing experience, one of which prefers 6.5 bullets for killing elk and everything else, since long before 6.5 bullets became popular. And he's killed a train load of elk and other critters with his 6.5's at LR.

There's nothing special about 7mm bullets, and there's nothing special about .308" bullets. If a bullet obliterates the vitals, the critter is going down as quickly as that individual animal can (again, some are tougher than others), regardless of what caliber the bullet used to be. Being that .308" bullets are a little bigger, they destroy a little more tissue on average, but if you were able to eliminate all other variables (which you can't), the terminal difference between .308" and 7mm bullets wouldn't be as drastic as some people make it out to be.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Those are big words! Had to google them. The 30 cal is not the best ever. We all know a big 338 is.

There is no way to prove it. But if you pay attention, pattern start to emerge.

How about you go out and do it yourself at LR with both calibers then give me you feedback.


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BTDT with 7mm and .30 rifles on various species.

If we're going big, then why stop at .338, why not straight to the .50BMG? I've not witnessed any elk killed with the .50, but I have to believe it'd do quite a number on them at distance.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Come on now Jordan; I thought you wanted an intelligent conversation. Show me a 10 pound 50 cal that you can shoot?? On the other hand, a 10 pound 338 is very doable.

I also disagree with you about elk. Outside of goats, they are arguably the toughest animal in North America.

I will also answer for Broz. If you went out and validated the Hornady 180 match you would see there BC is way lower than their posted .796 BC. I've tested this with a 7RM and a 28 Nosler. Although If I were going to stay with the 28 for elk, The 180 Match would be the bullet I would test next. Its been nasty on the two deer we shot with them.

I've had two 300 Rums with 26-inch barrels that shot 230 Bergers at or better than 3100 fps. Both had long throats with a coal of 3.85. I guess you will say I was way overpressure... Maybe but the brass gave me no indication of that. I have another one being build as we speak and will post up a video on the speed over a Chrono. But you can search around google and find several other credible people getting the same result.

You just spout out numbers and options with minimal or zero long-range field time with the caliber, bullets or animal that I am talking about.

 

[Broz]

There are plenty of 300 RUM / 230 Bereger combos out there running 3200 or either side of it. I have a new 300 rum and another being built, plus I have owned 300 rums before along with 30-378's 30 Lapua's and Lapua AI's. All data I post is from real experiences.

A good reamer puts QL in the dark ages and we all know QL always errors way on the safe side.

For example, to show not only my data. This is the load data from Jett's rifle. Jett is a very good friend of mine.

As always work up on charge weights and remember custom reamers make all rifles different.


"92 Grains of N570
230 Bergers
40 thousandths off the lands
CCI 250
2nd firing on brass
3165 FPS
Single digit ES and less than 1/2 MOA
Rifle by Dan's Custom Gun Service

I actually ran it past 3200 without pressure but backed it down to 3165 cause it just didn't seem fair."

Even the 195 Berger with a 0.755 BC is higher than any .308" bullet I've seen.

Warner flat line 30 cal 198 gr bullets have a G1 BC of .855 and there are plenty of 30's out there in this category. I can't wait to see how fast a well built BIG 30 can push these suckers. What ya think? 3300? 3400? 3500?

All I have posted , both opinion or factual is backed up by real world experience. Take it or leave it. I have helped 100's of hunters and shooter and I have never had one that was not grateful for my shared data / info. Anyone can shoot what they want, and it will not bother me one bit. You should shoot what you want. But for the ones that want true field experiences to help with a decision, these are the hunters and shooters I share my data for. Take it or leave it, it is all shared for the love of the sport.

 

[deadwolf]

Game. Set. Match.

Thanks for the info today Broz, plan to put it to good use, when things thaw out up here a bit!


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