.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[wyosam]

For some reason, this comment just caused me to realize what may have been my biggest shift in perspective on this - barrel length and velocity.

I used to be a "velocity above all" guy for almost any given rifle cartridge - the flatter the arc and the higher the impact velocity, the better. Never had a problem with .223 bullets and big game, but I did want a laser-beam of a trajectory. Pretty sure these ideas came from hunting as a kid, before range finders and really good bullets were the norm, and definitely before hunting suppressed was a thing. A 22" .223 would have been common sense.

But in seeing that these tipped match bullets are absolutely capable of killing deer and elk at distances far beyond what I'm personally capable of right now, and just how much better our range-finding and optics have gotten, my 16" ARs have become suspiciously long. And .223 bolt guns at 16" seem to be a pretty good sweet-spot. It's a pretty interesting perspective shift to experience.

Same, though I hunt with way less efficient bullets (I prefer monos). I was building shorter rifles in anticipation of getting a suppressor with 20” barrels. Then I got my first can, and immediately realized that I didn’t want to hunt with a rifle that long. So I took a stainless 6.5cm barrel I had pulled from a donor action to my smith and had him cut and thread at 16.25”. Ahhh, so much better. Bought a 16” 223. Having an 18” Dasher barrel spun up, that will get a triple 6 for same OAL. Give up some velocity, but will still be fast enough for bullet performance and the ranges I shoot game anyway. My 7-08 Ackley barrel I’ll leave at 20 if I have a hunt that might need more reach.


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[Deadspace]

Three cow elk harvested in the past two weeks using the 223/77tmk

Rifle:
Uberlite StraightPull AR15 (base rifle weighs 2.5lbs) 4lbs including scope/suppressor/mag
MV 2750fps
SWFA ultralight 2.5-10x32 BDC
JK Suppressor

Elk 1
110 yards, 1 shot
Conditions: thick timber, downhill shot.
Impact point; high shoulder/spine/backstrap
Dropped and rolled/slid 50 yards. Still breathing, but incapacitated when we got to it.

Elk 2
325 yards, 1 shot
Conditions: open high saddle, heavy wind gusts and blowing snow. Elk was standing broadside amongst other bedded and feeding elk.
Impact point; center body, liver/stomach
2 inches behind the lungs. (Bad wind call)
Herd spooked at the shot, and the cow followed for about 100 yards and then stopped just beyond the rise. Eventually laid down before it bled out internally. No blood trail. Bullet did not leave the far side of the stomach.

Elk 3
100 yards, 1 shot
Conditions: thick timber, steep hillside. Elk was standing, slightly quartered away amongst other bedded elk.
Impact point; high shoulder/high lung.
It ran 89 yards (with a good blood trail) and then fell (tried to get back on its feet several times). It took 20-ish minutes to fully expire.


Overall, none of the shots were "ideal" but still resulted in a notched tag. I've seen similar results with bigger calibers.

No exits. Only blood trail was #3.

Comparison for Elk 1: Earlier this season my daughter shot a bull with a 6.5cm and got high shoulder/backstrap (missed the lung). The result was very near identical to that if the Elk 1 in this writeup. (Dropped at the shot, and was found incapacitated but breathing after it rolled/slid a ways down the hill).

Comparison for Elk 2. last season my nephew took a cow with a 6.5cm and hit a bit far back. Got liver/stomach... but one tiny bullet fragment went into the lung. It went about 200 yards (just out if sight) and we found it dead.
Many years ago my son shot a cow with a 28nos 195gr berger. 3 shots mid body in the stomach... no exits. The elk remained standing for quite some time. Was able to hop a low fence about 20 yards just out of sight. Even a bigger caliber doesn't compensate for a bad shot.

Elk 3 is the odd one. The lung damage wasn't severe, but was more than just a nick. She was coughing blood and the blood trail was wide and obvious. It surprised me that it took so long to bleed out. However, I'm not ready to attribute this result to the 77tmk. If the impact point had been an inch or two lower, I would have expected lights out in a minute or two at most.

By comparison, one of my boys shot a cow many years ago with a 300wm, 425 yards, factory 200eldx. Impact point was classic behind front shoulder, but bullet hit the rib and 3/4 of it went 90 degrees through the diaphragm and liver, and 1/4 of it went straight through the lung. The wounded elk traveled with the herd for several hundred yards before slowing and then toppled over. Time from shot to expiration was about 5 min. Once we backtracked the trail, we did not find any blood along her route. In that case, even with good shot placement, the result wasn't ideal.

Even after seeing this in person a few times, I’m always amazed at how devastating these 77TMKs are. I can’t wait to see how destructive the 88s are. Well done man!

 

[packgoatguy]

Even after seeing this in person a few times, I’m always amazed at how devastating these 77TMKs are. I can’t wait to see how destructive the 88s are. Well done man!

Thanks! But I can't take all the credit, one was my 10 yr old daughter's first big game animal, and the other was my son's elk.

 

[omicron1792]

Smaller cull buck yesterday. Had one side of antlers all jacked up. 2835mv with 77 tmk. 100 yard shot. Double lung and had exit with blood trail. Ran 75 yards downhill and down.

 

[andrew_hood27]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but does anyone know if states like CO or WY will ever move away from their .24-caliber minimum on big game? I’d love to rebarrel my 6.5 creed to a 22 creed but I want a western hunting rifle that I can use in every western state (yes I know 6 creed would be the “easy button”.)

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but does anyone know if states like CO or WY will ever move away from their .24-caliber minimum on big game? I’d love to rebarrel my 6.5 creed to a 22 creed but I want a western hunting rifle that I can use in every western state (yes I know 6 creed would be the “easy button”.)

Don’t hold your breath for states to loosen restrictions. There’s really only minimal difference between a 22 and 6 Creed in the field with a properly setup rifle.

 

[ihookem]

Don’t hold your breath for states to loosen restrictions. There’s really only minimal difference between a 22 and 6 Creed in the field with a properly setup rifle.

I have to agree. I had some 22 and 24 cal. bullets next to each other and could hardly tell the difference . The 68 gr. 22 cal match and a 24 cal. 75 gr. hollow point was so close I could hardly tell the difference.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

I have to agree. I had some 22 and 24 cal. bullets next to each other and could hardly tell the difference . The 68 gr. 22 cal match and a 24 cal. 75 gr. hollow point was so close I could hardly tell the difference.

Im not talking about how the 22 and 6 CM look, but how they actually perform. Recoil, spotting impacts, external and terminal ballistics.

 

[Kaleb]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but does anyone know if states like CO or WY will ever move away from their .24-caliber minimum on big game? I’d love to rebarrel my 6.5 creed to a 22 creed but I want a western hunting rifle that I can use in every western state (yes I know 6 creed would be the “easy button”.)

Like you said 6cm is the easy button. Next easiest would be a 22cm stamped 6cm....grin. I'm sorta joking

I'm not advocating being an outlaw but if I had an itch to use a perfectly capable rifle/bullet and some pencil pushers thought I shouldn't I would struggle with that. I'm happy to use 6mm's because I like them too but if TN said I had to stop using 22's I'm pretty sure I could sleep at night if I continued to do so.