.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[z987k]

I'm in 13 on the road system. Hoping they raise our limit to two as well. This area is lousy with grizzlies too.

Ya, your bou population has collapsed over there. The shooting gallery adfg created back in 21 or 22 didn't help. Legal moose are pretty rare to.

 

[Toomuchon]

Well, I rest my case that you have no case. What, that is a completely worthless jib that serves no purpose, I take it back.

If your case is that someone else does not make the case for you and asks to have it shown, well my conclusion is that you have no case worth discussion.

Everything can succeed and everything can fail. One failure, or a few successes make for a very weak case. Hell, Bella Twin took a world record grizzly with a 22 (probably a 22 short, but perhaps a 22 long rifle) and Gene Moe Killed a costal brown with a knife.

If limited data is all the data we have, then we have no choice but to use it. However, there is a whole lot of success data buried in the thread with a few people who don't like certain aspects (no exit, poor blood trails, Etc.). If you want to have a case, for your accusation of intellectual laziness, which you have now specifically leveled against me by the way, stop being intellectually lazy yourself and make a case. That case, to be worth considering, must show that the 223/TMK fails more than a commonly accepted alternative (say a 7 mag loaded with Accubonds).

For the record, it was my own attempt to actually make a case against the 223/TMK that lead to me accepting it, because I failed to find the data I expected that showed it not to work.

Unfortunately it appears that @Tahr post has been taken out of context. I know that he shoots a LOT of deer with multiple .223’s and has been doing so for a number of decades. I can’t speak for the exact number, but I’d expect several hundred, if not a thousand. Based on the vast data set that he has presented in our local hunting forum, there is no overwhelming preference for a specific bullet to be used on medium game. Anything from Hornady 55gr SP, 53gr ELD-M, TMK through to 74/80gr locally manufactured projectiles. They all do the job once they’re placed where they need to go.

Seeing as you’re looking for an argument against the .223, vs the 7mm mag you mention - I would say the only real disadvantage of the .223 is wind drift. However, the disadvantage with the 7mm is recoil. There’s no free lunch anywhere, and literally every aspect of life involves compromise.

 

[Pharmseller]

The primary point of this thread is that bullet construction matters more than headstamps. It was stated in the first post. Bullet construction, as long as a shot is within the terminal velocity range of the bullet, determines wound channel volume and depth. What you’ll find if you take the time to go through this thread is that the right bullet in a 223 will result in more than enough damage and penetration to ethically harvest any game in North America and it will do it in a package that has less recoil and is easier to shoot accurately.

Kind of a mic drop post.




P

 

[SloppyJ]

I started my own thread as to not derail this one buy Gator asked me to add this.

I recently decided to dive into the .223 madness with yall. I was building a short action and had everything but my barrel. I'm still waiting on my 6creed barrel but I found a PVA .223 prefit in the classifieds with some brass so I said hell, why not.

Long story short, I took it out today for the first time and I haven't had that much fun since I was a kid. The instant feedback you get from spotting your shots took me all the way back to shooting 22s. My first loads were on point and I can't tell you how satisfying it was to watch a hole appear right where I have the cross hairs.

I live in the south. My first rifle was a .243. Then it quickly graduated to a 30-06. This line of thinking challenges the status quo down here very heavily. I'm glad I jumped in and I think I might take a couple deer with it later this year.

My first loads were 24.6g varget under a 75gr ELDM at 2.5". Can't complain about this 10rd group.

 

[Toomuchon]

That’s a pretty sick looking setup, very nice!

 

[JBradley500]

What velocity were you getting, like 2750?

 

[SloppyJ]

What velocity were you getting, like 2750?

2799.9 was the average so I'm going to round up to 2800. It's a 22" barrel with a Dilligent Defense Wolfhunter (6mm).

 

[prairieboy]

H4895 with 75 eldm gets me 2940-2950 from a 22" tikka. What was your charge weight?

i dont remember off the top of my head but i ran into case capacity issues with lc-13 cases. same with varget. Could have even been accuracy issues that caused me to drop it and move on, again id have to check my notes.

 

[plebe]

Anyone have knowledge/experience regarding 77tmk deflection through brush compared to other bullets/cartridges?

 

[Billogna]

That is somethin Gman!, props to a job well done! Ill gladly admit, I was 100% nay sayer when this thread started, but Iv since ( following the whole thread) have changed my thoughts.

I’m pretty married to a particular .375 for this season, but next season I’m super excited to trade in my 375(s) for a .223 for moose and bear, who knows, maybe mountain goat too. Very curious on the expiry time difference I will see between the two. I don’t care about meat loss, but I do care about a fast kill. From what I’m seeing, the expiry times with these small pills seem as quick, if not quicker then my experience with .375’s, which is quite a bit.

Plus, gives me a great excuse to buy another rifle .

Thanks for posting that fine bear!!

You're gonna make a stock for the .223 too right???

 

[damnbluedog]

For those wondering if their possibly marginal barrel twist will work with 77 tmk, they shoot well out of my 1:9 using 23.7 grns 8208xbr, RWS brass, BR4 primer, loaded to OAL 2.26". The 10 shot group matched the 10 shot group of factory Black Hills 77 smk, which has always done well out of the rifle. Added bonus, it has the same 100 yard POI as my 50 vmax load.

Side note, 5 round group of 69 tmk with the same powder charge and brass was almost identical group size. In the future I plan to do a 10 round group to fully verify and compare to Varget.

 

[ElPollo]

Anyone have knowledge/experience regarding 77tmk deflection through brush compared to other bullets/cartridges?

I have never seen anything specific to the .224 TMK bullets. But I have also never seen anything that suggests that the degree of deflection is caliber or bullet specific.

 

[SloppyJ]

i dont remember off the top of my head but i ran into case capacity issues with lc-13 cases. same with varget. Could have even been accuracy issues that caused me to drop it and move on, again id have to check my notes.

24.6gr. No pressure signs and could go higher. Likely will but they'll have to shoot like that for me to keep it.

 

[plebe]

I have never seen anything specific to the .224 TMK bullets. But I have also never seen anything that suggests that the degree of deflection is caliber or bullet specific.

Thanks. Was hoping there would be some studies folks know of.

I’ve read elsewhere discussion about .556 deflecting/tumbling more easily than 7.62 and generalized talk about terminal possibilities when a round tumbles prior to impact. Rudimentary experiments (like below) are sometimes linked. I know it’s hard to control for all the variables, but I assume there is some more scientific information somewhere.

The Box O' Truth #40 - Deflected Bullets and the...

Many of us are hunters and some are combatants. We all know that if a bullet hits a hard object, it can be deflected in a completely different path than the one it was traveling before the hit. A question we want to test today is this: Are some bullets more resistant to being deflected than...

www.theboxotruth.com

 

[Formidilosus]

but I assume there is some more scientific information somewhere.

There really isn’t. The moment you actually start measuring deflection, you realize that there is a very small difference between small arms, and the caliber is the smallest variable.

The answer is don’t shoot through brush, and if you do expect the bullet to deflect- from and caliber/cartridge.

 

[Macintosh]

There is SO much fudd lore on brush and shooting I'm not sure I trust anything, but this is about the best I have seen. Tyler Freel seems pretty legit and he's a proponent of the efficacy of smaller cartridges with frangible bullets, but on this subject he's saying low velocity large-caliber bullets and copper monos worked best (but still unreliable) and basically saying from what he tested anything less than a 45-70 is dog doo for shooting through brush, and even that was dumb. Suspect a 223 is terrible to begin with, and a 223 with a frangible bullet is even worse. The overall conclusion is just dont shoot through brush. (and I'm one of those Vermont deer trackers mentioned, I am well aware of what the implications of "just dont shoot through brush" are)

The Best Brush Busting Bullets Put to the Test

Brush rifles and brush bullets have been a topic of conversation for decades, but how effective are they at punching through thickets?

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[plebe]

There is SO much fudd lore on brush and shooting I'm not sure I trust anything, but this is about the best I have seen. Tyler Freel seems pretty legit and he's a proponent of the efficacy of smaller cartridges with frangible bullets, but on this subject he's recommending low velocity large-caliber bullets and copper monos, and basically saying from what he tested anything less than a 45-70 is dog doo for shooting through brush. Suspect a 223 is terrible to begin with, and a 223 with a frangible bullet is even worse. The overall conclusion is just dont shoot through brush. (and I'm one of those Vermont deer trackers mentioned, I am well aware of what the implications of "just dont shoot through brush" are)

The Best Brush Busting Bullets Put to the Test

Brush rifles and brush bullets have been a topic of conversation for decades, but how effective are they at punching through thickets?

www.outdoorlife.com

Yep. Shooting them where you find them and oftentimes quickly is important to me. Be that in the thick or across a large clear cut. It’s a conundrum I guess. I’ll take a look at the article, thanks for sharing.

 

[RockAndSage]

Anyone have knowledge/experience regarding 77tmk deflection through brush compared to other bullets/cartridges?

As a general rule, the more spitzer and pointy the shape, the more it will deflect and tumble. This largely has to do with leverage and center of gravity in those shapes - the further back the center of gravity, the more leverage an impact has in pushing the tip off course.

Because of this, spitzer shapes of almost any caliber and cartridge tend to deflect pretty easily, but the closer the center of gravity is towards the front, the less deflection you'll generally see. Heavy-for-caliber, because they are longer with their center of gravity less further back tend to do a bit better, but the problem is still there.

Buckshot, on the other hand, generally keeps going straight, as do the heavier and more flat-nosed shapes of pistol-caliber bullets, especially when you get into the bigger ones like .44 magnum. You also see something similar with heavy, blunter-shaped early blackpowder cartridge lead bullets used in buffalo guns.
This is exactly why dangerous game solids are shaped as they are - big, heavy, long, very little point, and they keep going straight through.

Shooting through brush and barriers is dumb if you don't have to - but if you do have to, don't use spitzers.

 

[Formidilosus]

There is SO much fudd lore on brush and shooting I'm not sure I trust anything, but this is about the best I have seen. Tyler Freel seems pretty legit and he's a proponent of the efficacy of smaller cartridges with frangible bullets, but on this subject he's recommending low velocity large-caliber bullets and copper monos, and basically saying from what he tested anything less than a 45-70 is dog doo for shooting through brush. Suspect a 223 is terrible to begin with, and a 223 with a frangible bullet is even worse. The overall conclusion is just dont shoot through brush. (and I'm one of those Vermont deer trackers mentioned, I am well aware of what the implications of "just dont shoot through brush" are)

The Best Brush Busting Bullets Put to the Test

Brush rifles and brush bullets have been a topic of conversation for decades, but how effective are they at punching through thickets?

www.outdoorlife.com

Well first, he was measuring the deflection after 15 yards of the bullet going through willow and Alder- you can’t even see an animal through that. Even still here is a 6” difference in his results between the worst and best bullet/caliber. Third, he only had one “small caliber” in his test, and the results of the large calibers were all over the place.

His, like every public one before (as he stated) is way too short on sample size to draw any conclusions from. The bullet that did the best in his results, is also very poor terminally.

“Brush busting” is largely a myth about like ft-lbs of energy needed to kill. And even in well done, as well as it has been done testing; the results are all over the place. In brush that someone would actually shoot through (that is positive ID the animal and its anatomy), as many times a flat nosed solid .45 will deflect less, a small diameter pointed bullet won’t hit the brush at all. His deer picture at the end of the article is a perfect example- in that scenario, it’s going to be about even, or even favoring small diameter bullets. The larger bullet may deflect slightly less if it hits brush, but it’s going to hit more brush always due to larger diameter. The answer is to pick a hole and put the shot through it. If you are going to try to get a bullet through brush, expect deflection no matter what.


This was from a 270win and 130gr Partition. A 30 yard shot, the deer 5’ish yards on the other side of brush and small trees-




That’s the entrance, and the bullet was tumbling at impact. I’ve had tumbling/deflected bullets cause wounds and misses from .277 to 375’s and 45 and 50cal MZ bullets. Though I haven’t had it happen to 6.5m and below, that’s just sample size- they all do it.

 

[Thegman]

Anyone have knowledge/experience regarding 77tmk deflection through brush compared to other bullets/cartridges?

I wouldn't think it would do any better than anything else, probably worse in fact. I've seen enough tracers taking 60 degree or so turns while passing through twigs I wouldn't count on shooting through brush to be at all reliable. I say "probably worse" because the 77TMK itself is an even more "delicate" bullet than a tracer.