.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Marbles]

I tend to agree with Form (and the many others) who have posted in this thread in support of 223 as an option when the correct projectile is chosen. But I am trying to make sure I'm not in my own echo chamber, so I would love to see someone who has disagreed with him (or the views), or said something to the contrary, that was based on logic or anything other than historic custom. I personally believe that almost every topic is subject to nuance, so I welcome any exceptions or differing points of view - at least if based on data.

I don't recall any of your posts, so these are not directed at you, but "everyone knows you need X ft lbs of energy", "respect the animal", "margin of error" or similar bases for disagreement have not, IMHO, held up to the responses (and are usually just met with "I'm bowing out of this pi$$ing contest" or similar replies).

About the only cogent pushback (at least that I can remember at the moment) was the question posed (I believe by @Marbles ) about the effectiveness of a 223 77gr TMK on the skull of a brown bear.

If you, or anyone, can summarize a contrary point of view, I'm all ears - and expect I'm not alone.

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

 

[hunterjmj]

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

I'd like to see these results myself. This could be done with a dead pig head at close range. As many hog hunters that are on this site I imagine it could be done.

 

[11Justin22]

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

I would bet there's going to be no problem getting into brain cavity. I haven't shot a bear but I grew up on a pig farm and have witnessed ALLOT of pigs killed (well into the thousands). They were all done with a .22 or.22 mag at point blank. Seen a small number of cows killed the same way

 

[11Justin22]

World record grizzly killed by a .22. Just remembered the story. Look it up. Granted it is not head on like Marbles is talking about

 

[Marbles]

I would bet there's going to be no problem getting into brain cavity. I haven't shot a bear but I grew up on a pig farm and have witnessed ALLOT of pigs killed (well into the thousands). They were all done with a .22 or.22 mag at point blank. Seen a small number of cows killed the same way

Don't discount inexperience. Frontal shots on pigs are easy, if I had gone lower on the base of the ear it would have worked fine. The 4th shot I placed midline of the head and forward of the ears and that one passed through the brain and stopped short of coming out the roof of the mouth. When I cut the head in half with a sawsaw my bullets were resting against the outside of the skull with about 1 inch of bone left between them and the brain.

It was crap shot placement on my part. But, replicating that placement would be an interesting test.

 

[Formidilosus]

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate

Yes.

I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

Wide expanded diameter bullets don’t penetrate through barriers well. 45 hollow points penetrate less than 9mm of same.

 

[Formidilosus]

Don't discount inexperience. Frontal shots on pigs are easy, if I had gone lower on the base of the ear it would have worked fine. The 4th shot I placed midline of the head and forward of the ears and that one passed through the brain and stopped short of coming out the roof of the mouth. When I cut the head in half with a sawsaw my bullets were resting against the outside of the skull with about 1 inch of bone left between them and the brain.

It was crap shot placement on my part. But, replicating that placement would be an interesting test.

Bear skulls are not pig or cow skulls. The are a predator.

 

[Marbles]

World record grizzly killed by a .22. Just remembered the story. Look it up. Granted it is not head on like Marbles is talking about

Head on, if the shot goes up the nose, a 22 lr will likely get the job done. Bella Twin shot it through the eye, then shot it 7 more times. http://www.bear-hunting.com/2022/7/grizzly-with-a-22-c It is a good reminder that if you can, slow the hell down. It is possible that most head shots just miss the brain being fired in hast.

Though, I don't want what can work some of the time, I want what will work most of the time. I hope to never fire a 22 remfire at a bear.

Also, a 700+ pound bear was killed on Kodiak with a folding buck knife and fists. I still don't cound my pocket knife as bear protection, but if push comes to shove I will try it.

Side note, while the same species, costal browns are larger than grizzlies. Not sure if a 26 5/16 (bella twins skull) would be meaningfully different from a 30 12/16th (record brown), probably not, both are big.

 

[Big_wals]

First kill with a 77 tmk tonight! Whitetail doe at 335 yards, impact velocity around 2200ish. Broadside, hit her on the crease. Small entrance of course, similar size exit. No pics of hide. (Sorry) traveled around 15 yards.
Entrance

Exit

 

[Big_wals]

I'll post some more pics of the shoulders tomorrow morning when we process it. In the meantime, on the bear skull discussion, surely there's some hog hunters that can try it on a dead pig? I know its not the same as a big bear, but would be interesting to see regardless.

 

[JohnDough]

I'll post some more pics of the shoulders tomorrow morning when we process it. In the meantime, on the bear skull discussion, surely there's some hog hunters that can try it on a dead pig? I know its not the same as a big bear, but would be interesting to see regardless.

Having shot a fair bit of stuff with a .45 and with a 5.56, I am betting it will make it into the skull and turn to confetti and launch spalling and all sorts of nasty stuff. The .45 is absolute trash for penetrating "hard" things. Literal trash. I remember as a kid once I had an old PC that needed done with. A .45 230gr FMJ from a 5" 1911 wouldn't even penetrate one side of the PC case, lol!


*This was 1980's hardware. Matte beige/white metal, not the glass walled gallery stuff we have now of course.

 

[hunterjmj]

World record grizzly killed by a .22. Just remembered the story. Look it up. Granted it is not head on like Marbles is talking about

Had to look this up. Bella Twin was a heck of a woman. Probably twice the man most of us are. Anyhow, the Cooey Ace 1 was a single shot .22 rifle that she used to kill the bear. Never heard of it until now but it sounds very similar to my kids' .22 Cricket rifle. Learn something new all the time.

 

[JohnDough]

Of note, back in the day, I had some 3/8" plate steel that I tested a lot of 5.56 on.

M193 would launch spalling and "make it through" (launch a plug out the back) out to about 100m
M855 would penetrate, and then through a 2x6 behind the plate. It would do this out to 150m, where I stopped testing.
Hornady TAP 5.56 T2 would perform similar to M193.

This was all from a 20" rifle.

Velocity is what burns through hard stuff, as is construction of projectile. The .45 ACP is a very slow creature, and it does not do well with hard stuff due to low velocity, low kinetic energy vs. frontal area, and soft projectile construction (typically). using some sort of hard caste bullet with a sharp shoulder may change the dynamic.

 

[11Justin22]

Head on, if the shot goes up the nose, a 22 lr will likely get the job done. Bella Twin shot it through the eye, then shot it 7 more times. http://www.bear-hunting.com/2022/7/grizzly-with-a-22-c It is a good reminder that if you can, slow the hell down. It is possible that most head shots just miss the brain being fired in hast.

Though, I don't want what can work some of the time, I want what will work most of the time. I hope to never fire a 22 remfire at a bear.

Also, a 700+ pound bear was killed on Kodiak with a folding buck knife and fists. I still don't cound my pocket knife as bear protection, but if push comes to shove I will try it.

Side note, while the same species, costal browns are larger than grizzlies. Not sure if a 26 5/16 (bella twins skull) would be meaningfully different from a 30 12/16th (record brown), probably not, both are big.

I referenced that saying bone isn't as hard to penetrate as some people say it is. And I totally agree. I want way more fire power than a .22. Honestly after a few years of using the 77gr. TMK I would feel very comfortable having an AR loaded with those. I shoot AR regularly and a person can put ALLOT of rounds down range in a hurry.

 

[11Justin22]

Bear skulls are not pig or cow skulls. The are a predator.

That they are not but just to be clear I wasn't referencing little 200lb hogs that are running around the woods everywhere. Most full grown boars were in the 600lb range with some getting over 700. Most people don't even realize a pig can get that big. They are also omnivores.... Still not a bear, just saying.

 

[Formidilosus]

That they are not but just to be clear I wasn't referencing little 200lb hogs that are running around the woods everywhere. Most full grown boars were in the 600lb range with some getting over 700. Most people don't even realize a pig can get that big. They are also omnivores.... Still not a bear, just saying.

Correct- I was pointing out that as in all other bone structure- pig and bovine skulls are significantly thicker than any predators.

 

[Castle Rock]

That they are not but just to be clear I wasn't referencing little 200lb hogs that are running around the woods everywhere. Most full grown boars were in the 600lb range with some getting over 700. Most people don't even realize a pig can get that big. They are also omnivores.... Still not a bear, just saying.

Please post a picture of the 600 pig or especially, the 700 pounder

 

[Billy Goat]

Please post a picture of the 600 pig or especially, the 700 pounder

Domestic pigs, not what's running around feral, will get pretty damn big.

I think the record is over 2500#.

Talking about an animal that grows to 260-280# in 6 months.

 

[Te Hopo]

I have no doubt a .223 will penetrate a bear skull, of course angle and position are the determining factor.
I've used a my .223 when running Hornady 62gr SP to put down agitated 1200lb cows with one shot near the ear from about 20m away.
No exit, just dumps all of that energy into the brain.
Next time im up the back of the farm I'll grab a photo of this cows skull, showing the entry.


But hunting, possible frontal shot?
I'll be either waiting for a more favorable angle or letting that animal go.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

So this thread has got my wheels turning the last couple of days. The rifle I've been hunting with the last 6-7 years is a Rem 700 in 300WM. I put a Timney trigger in it, Seekins muzzle brake and a bedded McMillan game scout. My thought is a Remington 700 SA set up identical with exception of a brake. The only concern I would have is factory barrel twist. They look to be 1:12. To shoot those 77's or similar I'm guessing I'll need to be 1:9?

The new 700’s are 1:8 for 223.