.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Formidilosus]

Years ago, it was a DDM4 chrome lined CHF 16.1" barrel with about 8K through it. 1/7 twist with surefire 556-212 suppressor.
Today it was a KAC 11.5" barrel, 1/7 twist, CHF, chrome lined, with QDC 556 KAC suppressor.

Something isn’t right. I’ve seem hundreds of chrome lined barrels, including from both of manufacturers, and sub 2 MOA for 10 rounds is expected.

 

[JohnDough]

I hate not being able to edit...about 300 rounds through the KAC barrel. As you can see, it's shooting the 70gr TSX probably near to the systems mechanical ability. The best group I've seen from 70gr TSX was 1.2moa fired from a Kreiger barreled weapon off a concrete bench with a 45x leupold by Molon over on AR15.com. I doubt a CHF chrome lined barrel with hot 70gr TSX is going to be good for much more than 1.69moa, given this. 10 shot groups of course.

 

[JohnDough]

Something isn’t right. I’ve seem hundreds of chrome lined barrels, including from both of manufacturers, and sub 2 MOA for 10 rounds is expected.

Correct, and I proved that the weapon system and shooter is capable of shooting <2moa by using my 70gr TSX to fire a 1.69moa 10 shot group off the mag as a monopod prone in a field, lol. It and my DDM4 just hate TMK. That DDM4 would put anything (MK262, MK318, 70gr TSX, good lots of M193, XM556FBIT3, RA55B, 55,62,75gr Gold Dot) other than M855A1 under 2moa (It would put A1 in about 3.55moa average of 10, 10 shot groups). The KAC is the same, although have not run A1 through it.

I have, not in any of my weapons, been able to shoot reliable sub 3moa groups with Black Hills 77gr TMK. I do not have answers for you as to why. I agree it's wonky, but whatever, I cannot argue with results that have been repeatable for the last half decade in multiple weapon systems for me.

 

[kswaterfowl]

I wouldn't have considered a .223/5.56 a bear, deer, elk round. Maybe deer but certainly not anything bigger. But after looking at the terminal performance pictures on here I'm very surprised. People said the same thing about using Berger match bullets for hunting years ago. i kept an open mind then, I'll do so now.

I shot quite a few deer with 69 gr berger varmint bullets out of my 243 back in the day. And they worked great!

 

[JohnDough]

On a phone, click the 3 dots and the edit option comes up. On the computer the edit button is in the same spot

View attachment 607096

I do not have that. I looked for it. I believe because my account is so new? I am also getting spammed with "266 seconds before you can do that..." stuff. This forum has a very good signal to noise ratio, and I think this is part of maintaining that with new accounts.


Edited...
WOOT! It literally popped up after I made this post!

As to the TMK, I reached out to a few people about it and have literally been rushed by multiple people to buy it off of me. I'm not mad about it, just find it odd that my guns hate the stuff. I really did want to try it this deer season, but a lot of my friends have stacked tons of deer with 70gr TSX, and I'll probably "just use that". It works really well, although not as devastating as the pictures I've seen here of the TMK, it also won't send lead confetti through the brisket so to speak, either. Regardless, I am happy to update with photos this deer season

 

[Steve300xcw]

I'm not mad about it, just find it odd that my guns hate the stuff.

Sometimes a gun just doesnt like something for some reason. Is what it is.

I have a 17HMR that wont shoot anything besides a hollowpoint

 

[justinspicher]

My KAC rifles are pretty picky with the “higher end” ammo as well.

 

[11Justin22]

I tend to agree with Form (and the many others) who have posted in this thread in support of 223 as an option when the correct projectile is chosen. But I am trying to make sure I'm not in my own echo chamber, so I would love to see someone who has disagreed with him (or the views), or said something to the contrary, that was based on logic or anything other than historic custom. I personally believe that almost every topic is subject to nuance, so I welcome any exceptions or differing points of view - at least if based on data.

I don't recall any of your posts, so these are not directed at you, but "everyone knows you need X ft lbs of energy", "respect the animal", "margin of error" or similar bases for disagreement have not, IMHO, held up to the responses (and are usually just met with "I'm bowing out of this pi$$ing contest" or similar replies).

About the only cogent pushback (at least that I can remember at the moment) was the question posed (I believe by @Marbles ) about the effectiveness of a 223 77gr TMK on the skull of a brown bear.

If you, or anyone, can summarize a contrary point of view, I'm all ears - and expect I'm not alone.

This is exactly my view point. I don't take what form says as gospel but I have yet to disprove anything that he has said and I try every time I incorporate something he states. It has always been backed by facts and that's how I have always operated in this world. Makes me think of a post I saw on Facebook today. Guy wanted ammo suggestions for 45-70 bear defense. He was suggested hard cast and the gentleman asked why hard cast. The first response was because fmj and hollow point would bounce off a bears skull

 

[Reburn]

I don't take what form says as gospel but I have yet to disprove anything that he has said.

And its annoying sometimes.
Educations cost money.
I have yet to prove form wrong and have tried.

 

[Marbles]

I tend to agree with Form (and the many others) who have posted in this thread in support of 223 as an option when the correct projectile is chosen. But I am trying to make sure I'm not in my own echo chamber, so I would love to see someone who has disagreed with him (or the views), or said something to the contrary, that was based on logic or anything other than historic custom. I personally believe that almost every topic is subject to nuance, so I welcome any exceptions or differing points of view - at least if based on data.

I don't recall any of your posts, so these are not directed at you, but "everyone knows you need X ft lbs of energy", "respect the animal", "margin of error" or similar bases for disagreement have not, IMHO, held up to the responses (and are usually just met with "I'm bowing out of this pi$$ing contest" or similar replies).

About the only cogent pushback (at least that I can remember at the moment) was the question posed (I believe by @Marbles ) about the effectiveness of a 223 77gr TMK on the skull of a brown bear.

If you, or anyone, can summarize a contrary point of view, I'm all ears - and expect I'm not alone.

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

 

[hunterjmj]

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

I'd like to see these results myself. This could be done with a dead pig head at close range. As many hog hunters that are on this site I imagine it could be done.

 

[11Justin22]

Yeah, that was me on a different thread. It was actually just about TMKs in general.

I'll spell it out here though.

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate with enough remaining umph to go through the inch of sinus cavity and thin bones and still break into the cranial vault?

At further distances and lower velocity I think the odds would be better. I think an angled strike on thick flat bone will likely cause the bullet to fragment, I think the tissue coated bones of a sinus and then another layer of bone will be hard for the fragments to pass through. (Side not: the skull is heavier than most parts of a scapula and bullet would be striking a convex surface which is a stronger structure than a flat one, and probably less prone to shattering than a humerus as the bone is supported by more bone around it)

The next question, that I did not ask earlier, is if a TMK is not up to the task, is a larger bore with a bonded bullet (308) better than a bonded bullet from a smaller bore at general killing? I suspect it is, but don't know.

Now, I am not saying the TMK will not handle the job, but I do not see anything that clearly says it will and I don't think I want to bet my life (or the life of my daughter if she is hunting with me) on it. If someone would kindly make a frontal shot on a bull moose's head or a bull elk's at a range where the bullet is closs to 3000 fps I would appreciate it. For the record, I'm not inclined to throw a 168 gr TMK from my 308 either for the reasons stated above. I might convince myself to step down in caliber to a 6.5 using bonded bullet.

The other option, would be plan like I do when hunting small game, drop the rifle and draw the pistol.

Side note, my 308 Tikka is noticeably more enjoyable to shoot than my 30-06 Kimber Montana. Which is why I'm willing to consider turning in what is left of my man card and going even smaller than a 308 (so much for my "I want to hunt deer with a 375 H&H, because bears" idea).

If anyone has a pig to slaughter and is willing to try a 77 gr TMK through the thick portion of the skull at the upper base of the ear to kill it at 6 inches, I would be interested in the result. I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

I would bet there's going to be no problem getting into brain cavity. I haven't shot a bear but I grew up on a pig farm and have witnessed ALLOT of pigs killed (well into the thousands). They were all done with a .22 or.22 mag at point blank. Seen a small number of cows killed the same way

 

[11Justin22]

World record grizzly killed by a .22. Just remembered the story. Look it up. Granted it is not head on like Marbles is talking about

 

[Marbles]

I would bet there's going to be no problem getting into brain cavity. I haven't shot a bear but I grew up on a pig farm and have witnessed ALLOT of pigs killed (well into the thousands). They were all done with a .22 or.22 mag at point blank. Seen a small number of cows killed the same way

Don't discount inexperience. Frontal shots on pigs are easy, if I had gone lower on the base of the ear it would have worked fine. The 4th shot I placed midline of the head and forward of the ears and that one passed through the brain and stopped short of coming out the roof of the mouth. When I cut the head in half with a sawsaw my bullets were resting against the outside of the skull with about 1 inch of bone left between them and the brain.

It was crap shot placement on my part. But, replicating that placement would be an interesting test.

 

[Formidilosus]

At close range and max velocity (muzzle to 20 yards) if I managed to put a TMK in a 1000+ pound bears face and it struck that thick angled section of skulls above the nose, could I reliable expect it to penetrate

Yes.

I will say, that section of skull can absorb three 230 gr Gold Dots and not even stun the pig (I felt pretty bad for the pig).

Wide expanded diameter bullets don’t penetrate through barriers well. 45 hollow points penetrate less than 9mm of same.

 

[Formidilosus]

Don't discount inexperience. Frontal shots on pigs are easy, if I had gone lower on the base of the ear it would have worked fine. The 4th shot I placed midline of the head and forward of the ears and that one passed through the brain and stopped short of coming out the roof of the mouth. When I cut the head in half with a sawsaw my bullets were resting against the outside of the skull with about 1 inch of bone left between them and the brain.

It was crap shot placement on my part. But, replicating that placement would be an interesting test.

Bear skulls are not pig or cow skulls. The are a predator.

 

[Marbles]

World record grizzly killed by a .22. Just remembered the story. Look it up. Granted it is not head on like Marbles is talking about

Head on, if the shot goes up the nose, a 22 lr will likely get the job done. Bella Twin shot it through the eye, then shot it 7 more times. http://www.bear-hunting.com/2022/7/grizzly-with-a-22-c It is a good reminder that if you can, slow the hell down. It is possible that most head shots just miss the brain being fired in hast.

Though, I don't want what can work some of the time, I want what will work most of the time. I hope to never fire a 22 remfire at a bear.

Also, a 700+ pound bear was killed on Kodiak with a folding buck knife and fists. I still don't cound my pocket knife as bear protection, but if push comes to shove I will try it.

Side note, while the same species, costal browns are larger than grizzlies. Not sure if a 26 5/16 (bella twins skull) would be meaningfully different from a 30 12/16th (record brown), probably not, both are big.

 

[Big_wals]

First kill with a 77 tmk tonight! Whitetail doe at 335 yards, impact velocity around 2200ish. Broadside, hit her on the crease. Small entrance of course, similar size exit. No pics of hide. (Sorry) traveled around 15 yards.
Entrance

Exit

 

[Big_wals]

I'll post some more pics of the shoulders tomorrow morning when we process it. In the meantime, on the bear skull discussion, surely there's some hog hunters that can try it on a dead pig? I know its not the same as a big bear, but would be interesting to see regardless.

 

[JohnDough]

I'll post some more pics of the shoulders tomorrow morning when we process it. In the meantime, on the bear skull discussion, surely there's some hog hunters that can try it on a dead pig? I know its not the same as a big bear, but would be interesting to see regardless.

Having shot a fair bit of stuff with a .45 and with a 5.56, I am betting it will make it into the skull and turn to confetti and launch spalling and all sorts of nasty stuff. The .45 is absolute trash for penetrating "hard" things. Literal trash. I remember as a kid once I had an old PC that needed done with. A .45 230gr FMJ from a 5" 1911 wouldn't even penetrate one side of the PC case, lol!


*This was 1980's hardware. Matte beige/white metal, not the glass walled gallery stuff we have now of course.