.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[xsn10s]

About like here if you disagree with Form or say something to the contrary

Well I expect him to rebut any disagreements. If it moves to personal attacks then we'd have to look at who drew first blood. I haven't been on here long enough to observe Form long enough. I'll say this I did purchase a SWFA 6X after reading some of his reviews. I like it but it's still not the greatest scope. I'm surprised on it's clarity. But I do notice some fisheye. I haven't had it for long so after using if for a year or so I'll decide on it. I might like it better than my side focus SWFA 10X. But to me the glass is on par with Leupold VariXII. Useable, but there are better scopes. I'm glad to have a Japanese made scope for the price.

 

[kkp005]

Damn. Sorry to hear that.

Based on my experience, if you hit that hog in the front half, it’s dead.

Hate when this happens to animals regardless of the projectile and caliber.

Yeah. Everything thing I’ve shot with TMK’s has been absolutely wrecked when I open them up and look inside. I have no doubt that it’s dead. In open country I probably would have watched it drop within 50-60 yards… but where I am, 50-60 yards in thick cover can make stuff really hard to find. The few animals that I shot that actually ran have bled pretty good.. but it seems like they don’t really start pumping any out until running 20-30 yards or so

 

[JohnDough]

At this point, Im just rage quitting TMK. I bought some way back in the day when it first became a thing from Black Hills. I recall that it grouped like trash in known 1moa guns. I am a 1moa shooter behind an AR pattern rifle with 4x or more magnification. 10 shot groups, prone, off the magazine, or from a bench off a bag. Its just what my personal limits are. I typically can pull near mechanical accuracy from a typical AR system (weapon + ammo).



Anyway, today my new Black Hills 77gr TMK 5.56 arrived. A whole case of the beautiful stuff. I promptly loaded up my 11.5" SBR and headed to my back yard. This is the result at 100 yards.



Trash. But hey, maybe I am off. Maybe the weapon has developed an issue. Big doubt, but whatever. I trudged back to the house and grabbed 10 rounds of 70gr TSX. I stuffed it in the weapon and walked back, plopped down, and hammered this out.


I did not feel any more or less zen with either group, nor did I call any pulled shots. The groups are what they are. The 70gr TSX is pushing 2550fps 10ft from my muzzle based on my last records with this lot, and Im going to keep the sub-1.7moa round and forget about the 3.5+ moa round, no matter how wonderful you all say and show me it is, terminally. 2550 at the muzzle gets me to 300 with decent expansion from the 70 TSX with a 5" group. At 300 the TMK gets me a group over 10" across, assuming linear progression of dispersion.

 

[mt terry d]

Also, the Form fan boyism is impressive to watch.

Also, the Form fan boyism is impressive to watch.

If you've ever met him you'd know there is nothing about him or the rag-tag crowd* he hangs out with that inspires "fanboy-ism" in any way. That is if you discount his dimples and blonde waist-length locks flowing gently in a half value 15 mph breeze.

(*except the guy in crocs, who I'm pretty sure really isn't totally gay )

But to ignore the facts, tested information and evidence he has would be foolish.

 

[Drenalin]

At this point, Im just rage quitting TMK.

How many rounds are you selling?

 

[JohnDough]

Gratuitous range picture to explain the shooting situation. I just used the mag as a monopod.

 

[JohnDough]

How many rounds are you selling?

The case. By my count thats 470 rounds total in 9 full 50 round boxes, and the remainder of the 10th box. I used 30 rounds for my evaluation. I say used, because I loaded a full pmag, and backpressure from the can dusted the mag pretty ugly.

 

[JohnDough]

Wait...can I not edit posts? I wanted to add a photo to the above.

 

[fwafwow]

About like here if you disagree with Form or say something to the contrary

I tend to agree with Form (and the many others) who have posted in this thread in support of 223 as an option when the correct projectile is chosen. But I am trying to make sure I'm not in my own echo chamber, so I would love to see someone who has disagreed with him (or the views), or said something to the contrary, that was based on logic or anything other than historic custom. I personally believe that almost every topic is subject to nuance, so I welcome any exceptions or differing points of view - at least if based on data.

I don't recall any of your posts, so these are not directed at you, but "everyone knows you need X ft lbs of energy", "respect the animal", "margin of error" or similar bases for disagreement have not, IMHO, held up to the responses (and are usually just met with "I'm bowing out of this pi$$ing contest" or similar replies).

About the only cogent pushback (at least that I can remember at the moment) was the question posed (I believe by @Marbles ) about the effectiveness of a 223 77gr TMK on the skull of a brown bear.

If you, or anyone, can summarize a contrary point of view, I'm all ears - and expect I'm not alone.

 

[Formidilosus]

At this point, Im just rage quitting TMK. I bought some way back in the day when it first became a thing from Black Hills. I recall that it grouped like trash in known 1moa guns. I am a 1moa shooter behind an AR pattern rifle with 4x or more magnification. 10 shot groups, prone, off the magazine, or from a bench off a bag. Its just what my personal limits are. I typically can pull near mechanical accuracy from a typical AR system (weapon + ammo).



Anyway, today my new Black Hills 77gr TMK 5.56 arrived. A whole case of the beautiful stuff. I promptly loaded up my 11.5" SBR and headed to my back yard. This is the result at 100 yards.
View attachment 607045


Trash. But hey, maybe I am off. Maybe the weapon has developed an issue. Big doubt, but whatever. I trudged back to the house and grabbed 10 rounds of 70gr TSX. I stuffed it in the weapon and walked back, plopped down, and hammered this out.
View attachment 607047

I did not feel any more or less zen with either group, nor did I call any pulled shots. The groups are what they are. The 70gr TSX is pushing 2550fps 10ft from my muzzle based on my last records with this lot, and Im going to keep the sub-1.7moa round and forget about the 3.5+ moa round, no matter how wonderful you all say and show me it is, terminally. 2550 at the muzzle gets me to 300 with decent expansion from the 70 TSX with a 5" group. At 300 the TMK gets me a group over 10" across, assuming linear progression of dispersion.

What are barrel specs- twist, brand, etc; and how many rounds on it?

 

[N2TRKYS]

After some tweaking to the Tikka factory stock, I found a load that it’ll shoot accurately. Now, I just have to find a deer to shoot this season to test it out.

 

[JohnDough]

What are barrel specs- twist, brand, etc; and how many rounds on it?

Years ago, it was a DDM4 chrome lined CHF 16.1" barrel with about 8K through it. 1/7 twist with surefire 556-212 suppressor.
Today it was a KAC 11.5" barrel, 1/7 twist, CHF, chrome lined, with QDC 556 KAC suppressor.

 

[Formidilosus]

Years ago, it was a DDM4 chrome lined CHF 16.1" barrel with about 8K through it. 1/7 twist with surefire 556-212 suppressor.
Today it was a KAC 11.5" barrel, 1/7 twist, CHF, chrome lined, with QDC 556 KAC suppressor.

Something isn’t right. I’ve seem hundreds of chrome lined barrels, including from both of manufacturers, and sub 2 MOA for 10 rounds is expected.

 

[JohnDough]

I hate not being able to edit...about 300 rounds through the KAC barrel. As you can see, it's shooting the 70gr TSX probably near to the systems mechanical ability. The best group I've seen from 70gr TSX was 1.2moa fired from a Kreiger barreled weapon off a concrete bench with a 45x leupold by Molon over on AR15.com. I doubt a CHF chrome lined barrel with hot 70gr TSX is going to be good for much more than 1.69moa, given this. 10 shot groups of course.

 

[JohnDough]

Something isn’t right. I’ve seem hundreds of chrome lined barrels, including from both of manufacturers, and sub 2 MOA for 10 rounds is expected.

Correct, and I proved that the weapon system and shooter is capable of shooting <2moa by using my 70gr TSX to fire a 1.69moa 10 shot group off the mag as a monopod prone in a field, lol. It and my DDM4 just hate TMK. That DDM4 would put anything (MK262, MK318, 70gr TSX, good lots of M193, XM556FBIT3, RA55B, 55,62,75gr Gold Dot) other than M855A1 under 2moa (It would put A1 in about 3.55moa average of 10, 10 shot groups). The KAC is the same, although have not run A1 through it.

I have, not in any of my weapons, been able to shoot reliable sub 3moa groups with Black Hills 77gr TMK. I do not have answers for you as to why. I agree it's wonky, but whatever, I cannot argue with results that have been repeatable for the last half decade in multiple weapon systems for me.

 

[kswaterfowl]

I wouldn't have considered a .223/5.56 a bear, deer, elk round. Maybe deer but certainly not anything bigger. But after looking at the terminal performance pictures on here I'm very surprised. People said the same thing about using Berger match bullets for hunting years ago. i kept an open mind then, I'll do so now.

I shot quite a few deer with 69 gr berger varmint bullets out of my 243 back in the day. And they worked great!

 

[JohnDough]

On a phone, click the 3 dots and the edit option comes up. On the computer the edit button is in the same spot

View attachment 607096

I do not have that. I looked for it. I believe because my account is so new? I am also getting spammed with "266 seconds before you can do that..." stuff. This forum has a very good signal to noise ratio, and I think this is part of maintaining that with new accounts.


Edited...
WOOT! It literally popped up after I made this post!

As to the TMK, I reached out to a few people about it and have literally been rushed by multiple people to buy it off of me. I'm not mad about it, just find it odd that my guns hate the stuff. I really did want to try it this deer season, but a lot of my friends have stacked tons of deer with 70gr TSX, and I'll probably "just use that". It works really well, although not as devastating as the pictures I've seen here of the TMK, it also won't send lead confetti through the brisket so to speak, either. Regardless, I am happy to update with photos this deer season

 

[Steve300xcw]

I'm not mad about it, just find it odd that my guns hate the stuff.

Sometimes a gun just doesnt like something for some reason. Is what it is.

I have a 17HMR that wont shoot anything besides a hollowpoint

 

[justinspicher]

My KAC rifles are pretty picky with the “higher end” ammo as well.

 

[11Justin22]

I tend to agree with Form (and the many others) who have posted in this thread in support of 223 as an option when the correct projectile is chosen. But I am trying to make sure I'm not in my own echo chamber, so I would love to see someone who has disagreed with him (or the views), or said something to the contrary, that was based on logic or anything other than historic custom. I personally believe that almost every topic is subject to nuance, so I welcome any exceptions or differing points of view - at least if based on data.

I don't recall any of your posts, so these are not directed at you, but "everyone knows you need X ft lbs of energy", "respect the animal", "margin of error" or similar bases for disagreement have not, IMHO, held up to the responses (and are usually just met with "I'm bowing out of this pi$$ing contest" or similar replies).

About the only cogent pushback (at least that I can remember at the moment) was the question posed (I believe by @Marbles ) about the effectiveness of a 223 77gr TMK on the skull of a brown bear.

If you, or anyone, can summarize a contrary point of view, I'm all ears - and expect I'm not alone.

This is exactly my view point. I don't take what form says as gospel but I have yet to disprove anything that he has said and I try every time I incorporate something he states. It has always been backed by facts and that's how I have always operated in this world. Makes me think of a post I saw on Facebook today. Guy wanted ammo suggestions for 45-70 bear defense. He was suggested hard cast and the gentleman asked why hard cast. The first response was because fmj and hollow point would bounce off a bears skull