.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[BRTreedogs]

Thanks. I’m wading through the “show me your semi custom Tikka” thread and I’ve been thinking through 16” vs 18”, especially since I’m using a TBAC Ultra 9 and not likely to get a shorter can.

Perhaps a stupid question - has anyone done an SBR for a bolt action that will run suppressed? I imagine the loss of velocity (and ATF paperwork and delay) may not make the maneuverability worth it.

You want to go shorter the 16.5"

 

[fwafwow]

You want to go shorter the 16.5"

Sorry to be dense, but I'm not sure I understand the post. Do you mean that I DO NOT want to go shorter than 16.5"?

 

[woods89]

Rifle seasons coming!

Prepping cases tonight. 69 gr TMK and CFE223 are this years winners, since I'm hindered by a 1-9 twist.....

 

[BRTreedogs]

Sorry to be dense, but I'm not sure I understand the post. Do you mean that I DO NOT want to go shorter than 16.5"?

You do not need an SBR unless you go shorter then 16.5" barrel.
The question you posted before about sbr indicated you may want shorter then a 16.5" barrel.
So that's what I'm asking?
Are you considering and sbr because you want to go shorter then 16.5"?

If so what length are you thinking?

 

[fwafwow]

You do not need an SBR unless you go shorter then 16.5" barrel.
The question you posted before about sbr indicated you may want shorter then a 16.5" barrel.
So that's what I'm asking?
Are you considering and sbr because you want to go shorter then 16.5"?

If so what length are you thinking?

Ah - yes, I could have worded it better. Let me try another way.

For those who are going with shorter barrels, how short would you go if there was no need to get an SBR stamp (as if the law didn’t exist)? Would you do 14”? Never less than 16” irrespective of the SBR law? At what velocity loss due to a shorter barrel does the shorter length and better maneuverability lose out?

It’s a bit of a hypothetical question because I don’t *need* to go below 16”, but I’m curious. I’ve gone thru the SBR process before with an AR lower (and at one point I looked into finding a short barrel bolt action upper - as I don’t think that requires a separate stamp), and it’s not the end of the world. And with a TBAC Ultra 9, losing a few more inches.

But as mentioned before, perhaps a stupid and/or uninformed question.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Ah - yes, I could have worded it better. Let me try another way.

For those who are going with shorter barrels, how short would you go if there was no need to get an SBR stamp (as if the law didn’t exist)? Would you do 14”? Never less than 16” irrespective of the SBR law? At what velocity loss due to a shorter barrel does the shorter length and better maneuverability lose out?

It’s a bit of a hypothetical question because I don’t *need* to go below 16”, but I’m curious. I’ve gone thru the SBR process before with an AR lower (and at one point I looked into finding a short barrel bolt action upper - as I don’t think that requires a separate stamp), and it’s not the end of the world. And with a TBAC Ultra 9, losing a few more inches.

But as mentioned before, perhaps a stupid and/or uninformed question.

If you are planning to hunt with a 223 and have an AR SBR lower already why not just build another hunting upper?

 

[fwafwow]

If you are planning to hunt with a 223 and have an AR SBR lower already why not just build another hunting upper?

I have a 556 upper that I plan to try, at least for some short range pigs, but there are some cons to going that route. First, it’s 10.3” (part of the reason for my question), and an AR upper, so I don’t know how much accuracy and velocity I give up with that length and being semi-auto (although both can be determined). Second, that upper is configured for SD, and I’m thinking a hunting upper (even an AR) would be configured differently (at least for me). I could get a completely different upper (say with a scope), but that upper could run more than a RS Special Tikka chopped. And again, I don’t think there is a bolt action option for the lower, or there weren’t good choices when I looked.

Not sure what the current SD setup weighs, but will check.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I have a 556 upper that I plan to try, at least for some short range pigs, but there are some cons to going that route. First, it’s 10.3” (part of the reason for my question), and an AR upper, so I don’t know how much accuracy and velocity I give up with that length and being semi-auto (although both can be determined). Second, that upper is configured for SD, and I’m thinking a hunting upper (even an AR) would be configured differently (at least for me). I could get a completely different upper (say with a scope), but that upper could run more than a RS Special Tikka chopped. And again, I don’t think there is a bolt action option for the lower, or there weren’t good choices when I looked.

Not sure what the current SD setup weighs, but will check.

The Kali Key will make you AR bolt action basically, check it out.

For me it would NOT be worth the hassle to register a bolt action. You will have to give it up to be serialized then submit your paperwork.

Be without your bolt action for year, not sure what getting it engraved cost, plus shipping, plus the stamp. Put that money towards another AR 15 upper and be done with it.

 

[Lawnboi]

Ah - yes, I could have worded it better. Let me try another way.

For those who are going with shorter barrels, how short would you go if there was no need to get an SBR stamp (as if the law didn’t exist)? Would you do 14”? Never less than 16” irrespective of the SBR law? At what velocity loss due to a shorter barrel does the shorter length and better maneuverability lose out?

It’s a bit of a hypothetical question because I don’t *need* to go below 16”, but I’m curious. I’ve gone thru the SBR process before with an AR lower (and at one point I looked into finding a short barrel bolt action upper - as I don’t think that requires a separate stamp), and it’s not the end of the world. And with a TBAC Ultra 9, losing a few more inches.

But as mentioned before, perhaps a stupid and/or uninformed question.

There’s a lot in here in regards to barrel length and velocity. Personally I want to maintain 2k impact velocity. 1800 fps is acceptable to some in this thread.

My 20” tikka gets a 77tmk going comfortably at 2770fps. That gets me to my personal limit of 400 yards with this rifle maintaining 2000fps in low density altitude conditions.

I’d think of what you want to do with it and cut from there. If it’s a rifle your going to carry and take a hundred yard shot I’d cut the hell out of it. If it’s something you want to stretch you might want longer.

Biggest con of the 223/77 is wind, it’s not the most effective at bucking the wind and the slower it goes the worse it gets.

 

[fwafwow]

The Kali Key will make you AR bolt action basically, check it out.

For me it would NOT be worth the hassle to register a bolt action. You will have to give it up to be serialized then submit your paperwork.

Be without your bolt action for year, not sure what getting it engraved cost, plus shipping, plus the stamp. Put that money towards another AR 15 upper and be done with it.

I did check out the Kali Key. It seemed interesting (although not likely a good fit for me). Then having to remove the gas key makes it a non-starter.

Acknowledged on the hassle. I don’t mind the wait - and the engraving is minimal. I’m just not sure of the possible benefits apart from a bit more maneuverability.

In all likelihood I will stick with the Tikka at 16+”. This is just one (of many) examples of idle hands…

 

[fwafwow]

There’s a lot in here in regards to barrel length and velocity. Personally I want to maintain 2k impact velocity. 1800 fps is acceptable to some in this thread.

My 20” tikka gets a 77tmk going comfortably at 2770fps. That gets me to my personal limit of 400 yards with this rifle maintaining 2000fps in low density altitude conditions.

I’d think of what you want to do with it and cut from there. If it’s a rifle your going to carry and take a hundred yard shot I’d cut the hell out of it. If it’s something you want to stretch you might want longer.

Biggest con of the 223/77 is wind, it’s not the most effective at bucking the wind and the slower it goes the worse it gets.

Thanks. I appreciate you and @BRTreedogs giving me practical advice. Most of my whitetail shots are within 100 yards, but there are a few spots where I could go to 250. I’ve got two rifles that would take me to that and well beyond, so I’m very tempted to cut to the 16” and realize it’s a rifle with limitations. I will also try to dig thru this and other threads to see approximate velocities at that range with 16-20”.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Besides cost, if I was ever going to do more paperwork it would be for more suppressors. Not another sbr.

 

[Lawnboi]

Thanks. I appreciate you and @BRTreedogs giving me practical advice. Most of my whitetail shots are within 100 yards, but there are a few spots where I could go to 250. I’ve got two rifles that would take me to that and well beyond, so I’m very tempted to cut to the 16” and realize it’s a rifle with limitations. I will also try to dig thru this and other threads to see approximate velocities at that range with 16-20”.

I think a 16”+ a 9” suppressor would be appropriate. Similar to me wanting an 18” with a 7” suppressor.

You can push on the gas on the 223 pretty hard if you hand load. Keep that in mind reading others load data in this thread.

I’d start searching for Xbr now if you do hand load. It is thee powder for speed and temp stability for 223 ime

 

[fwafwow]

I think a 16”+ a 9” suppressor would be appropriate. Similar to me wanting an 18” with a 7” suppressor.

You can push on the gas on the 223 pretty hard if you hand load. Keep that in mind reading others load data in this thread.

I’d start searching for Xbr now if you do hand load. It is thee powder for speed and temp stability for 223 ime

Thanks. I don’t hand load, but this thread has me reconsidering.

 

[Lawnboi]

Thanks. I don’t hand load, but this thread has me reconsidering.

Part of the beauty for me in the 223 is that it’s dirt cheap to load. Brass is plentiful and cheap, even the good stuff isn’t bad. Bullets are affordable and it burns very little powder.

It’s stupid easy to load as well

 

[Billogna]

Here's a great article about barrel length vs velocity in .223/5.56. TMKs are not specifically mentioned but grain weights are similar enough to get a really good idea of how much velocity is lost by cutting a barrel inch by inch. My take away was that there appears to be a sweet spot right at 20 inches and any more length added beyond that is a marginal gain in velocity at best... but anything shorter than 20 inches starts to drop off pretty quickly. https://rifleshooter.com/2015/12/22...el-length-and-velocity-26-inches-to-6-inches/

 

[fwafwow]

Part of the beauty for me in the 223 is that it’s dirt cheap to load. Brass is plentiful and cheap, even the good stuff isn’t bad. Bullets are affordable and it burns very little powder.

It’s stupid easy to load as well

Since I’m currently under a domestic ammo purchase embargo, do you think my explanation “these are reloading components!” will fly?

Thanks. But I love/hate this thread.

 

[sram9102]

@fwafwow Form 1s have been coming back pretty quick recently. Couple of months typically. I have gone over the idea of SBRing my switchlug. My only larger centerfire can is 9 inches long and we would have to try and find a place to shoot deer at more than 400 locally. I have been thinking of cutting the 6.5 to 12.5. Would still probably get 130 elds to 2500+ at the muzzle.

Submitting forms to the ATF for interstate travel would be the main turnoff for sbring my main hunting rifle.

 

[fwafwow]

@fwafwow Form 1s have been coming back pretty quick recently. Couple of months typically. I have gone over the idea of SBRing my switchlug. My only larger centerfire can is 9 inches long and we would have to try and find a place to shoot deer at more than 400 locally. I have been thinking of cutting the 6.5 to 12.5. Would still probably get 130 elds to 2500+ at the muzzle.

Submitting forms to the ATF for interstate travel would be the main turnoff for sbring my main hunting rifle.

As I'm packing up my gear to travel across state lines to deer hunt, you reminded me of a huge issue. Taking my cans to the other state is fine, but not my SBR. I had no plans to do so, but I could see down the road forgetting about that rule and taking my sub-16" RS Tikka 77TMK Special and not having complied with this rule. Just one more reason to keep my SBR as SD and to build the new Tikka to be 16" plus. Thanks!

 

[CBB1]

This has really opened my eyes to a lot of things. Are you guys finding the 77TMK in a factory load or handloading?


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