.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[FredH]

Being that's a given, why argue that? Do you dispute the point in the upper post?

Do the words "irrelevant" or "non sequitur" mean anything to you?

The obvious is neither irrelevant or a non sequitur.

 

[Billy Goat]

The oblivious are either irrelevant or a non quiter.

 

[FredH]

Personally, I am of the opinion that a heavy for caliber, more frangible bullet spun fast buts a lot more leeway on a marginal hit than a larger caliber bonded or mono bullet.

So yes, the shooter is secondary to bullet construction in my opinion.

Wow I gues we are just trying to find something to disagree with. Well I am definitely not in the Mono camp. In situations where deer penetration might be needed I like bonded bullets like the Fusions. I am of the camp that a heavy for caliber bullet spun fast puts a lot more leeway on a marginal hit also. However I also believe a larger heavy for caliber, quickly expanding bullet that looses some weight to fragmentation bullet spun fast at a similar velocity gives even more leeway on marginal hits. However here we see mostly perfect or almost perfect hits being put into the database. It would be nice to gather some data on not so perfect hits for the database.

 

[Thegman]

The obvious is neither irrelevant or a non sequitur.

Really?

"The sky is blue". That's obvious, therefore it must also be relevant to one being able to shoot smaller cartridges more precisely than significantly larger cartridges?

What's the matter with you?

 

[KHntr]

Vented gas cans are the trophy in that picture.
Old ones I assume?

Hadn’t really thought about it, but I have a fair jag of them kicking around and haven’t bought one in at least a decade…

 

[Dave0317]

I think it would be great to organize a Rokslide shoot to prove or disprove some of these obvious things.

I’m sure shooter background plays a role in how well a person can shoot a large caliber. But I think the average effect has been discussed many many times here. Maybe this idea has even been posted before, but if not, here it is.

We should do a shoot to compare how much a shooter’s hit rate is affected. Mainly 100 yard drills to minimize effects of wind, weather, etc.

Get shooters of various backgrounds together, including at least a few big caliber believers that “know” they are capable of shooting a 300WM just as accurately as a .223.

Shoot the Rifle Kraft drill.
Shoot the Carl Ross Hunting drill.
Maybe throw in some other course of fire or two if more data seems relevant. Have all the shooters shoot it with .223 and some larger caliber. Maybe a 30-06 or similar. And shoot both from rifles that are similarly set up. So like a .223 T3X and a 30-06 T3x, both with same stock and scope.

I have some predictions how this would turn out. Would make an entertaining YouTube thing, kind of like the Backfire milk jug challenges.

 

[KHntr]

. However here we see mostly perfect or almost perfect hits being put into the database. It would be nice to gather some data on not so perfect hits for the database.

Not the first time I posted this pic in this thread.
Young hunter (15). First elk. First animal without his dad beside him.
202 yards. 223AI. 88 ELD m. Quartering to us, and he pulled the shot to the right and smoked her square in the middle of the chest. Bullet exited at the leading edge of the offside shoulder. Maybe 2” of entry into the ribcage. Fronts of both lungs black and bleeding from bullet shrapnel. A mono or bonded bullet likely would have resulted in a rodeo.

Dead in under 40 yards.

 

[BLJ]

Hadn’t really thought about it, but I have a fair jag of them kicking around and haven’t bought one in at least a decade…

Rich man.

 

[Speaks]

I think it would be great to organize a Rokslide shoot to prove or disprove some of these obvious things.

I’m sure shooter background plays a role in how well a person can shoot a large caliber. But I think the average effect has been discussed many many times here. Maybe this idea has even been posted before, but if not, here it is.

We should do a shoot to compare how much a shooter’s hit rate is affected. Mainly 100 yard drills to minimize effects of wind, weather, etc.

Get shooters of various backgrounds together, including at least a few big caliber believers that “know” they are capable of shooting a 300WM just as accurately as a .223.

Shoot the Rifle Kraft drill.
Shoot the Carl Ross Hunting drill.
Maybe throw in some other course of fire or two if more data seems relevant. Have all the shooters shoot it with .223 and some larger caliber. Maybe a 30-06 or similar. And shoot both from rifles that are similarly set up. So like a .223 T3X and a 30-06 T3x, both with same stock and scope.

I have some predictions how this would turn out. Would make an entertaining YouTube thing, kind of like the Backfire milk jug challenges.

This would be interesting. Outside of lots of shotgun wing shooting I had really only shot my 270 and my AR for the last several years until just about a year ago.

I got a Tikka 6.5 CM and shot it much better. How much was the gun and how much was the recoil? I then added a Tikka 223 and shoot that much better than the 6.5 CM though I shoot both quite well. I would have to guess the difference is more recoil as they are both configured identically both with rokstocks and Mavens. Just spun a 6CM barrel on another Tikka and have a 6.5 PRC that I have barely shot yet.

I would bet I could take all 4 of those Tikkas and see noticeable group size increase as I go up in recoil. Might now shoot them all in a sitting until it warms up but will be informative I am sure.

Thinking set a target up with 4 aim points. Shoot 5 round strings with each and repeat 6 times for a total 30 shot group for each with some cool down time in the middle and rotating so fatigue effects them all equally.

Of course that only shows for me not an average, but still interesting.

 

[4090Sharps]

I think it would be great to organize a Rokslide shoot to prove or disprove some of these obvious things.

I’m sure shooter background plays a role in how well a person can shoot a large caliber. But I think the average effect has been discussed many many times here. Maybe this idea has even been posted before, but if not, here it is.

We should do a shoot to compare how much a shooter’s hit rate is affected. Mainly 100 yard drills to minimize effects of wind, weather, etc.

Get shooters of various backgrounds together, including at least a few big caliber believers that “know” they are capable of shooting a 300WM just as accurately as a .223.

Shoot the Rifle Kraft drill.
Shoot the Carl Ross Hunting drill.
Maybe throw in some other course of fire or two if more data seems relevant. Have all the shooters shoot it with .223 and some larger caliber. Maybe a 30-06 or similar. And shoot both from rifles that are similarly set up. So like a .223 T3X and a 30-06 T3x, both with same stock and scope.

I have some predictions how this would turn out. Would make an entertaining YouTube thing, kind of like the Backfire milk jug challenges.

I'm projecting based on my own experiences and those I've shot with, but I would wager it all that there would be not only a statistically significant bias in favor of the smaller caliber, but that such analysis wouldn't even be required. I'm not going to bother looking right now, but I'm all but sure there are studies/papers that back this up.

 

[liv3mind]

I think it would be great to organize a Rokslide shoot to prove or disprove some of these obvious things.

I’m sure shooter background plays a role in how well a person can shoot a large caliber. But I think the average effect has been discussed many many times here. Maybe this idea has even been posted before, but if not, here it is.

We should do a shoot to compare how much a shooter’s hit rate is affected. Mainly 100 yard drills to minimize effects of wind, weather, etc.

Get shooters of various backgrounds together, including at least a few big caliber believers that “know” they are capable of shooting a 300WM just as accurately as a .223.

Shoot the Rifle Kraft drill.
Shoot the Carl Ross Hunting drill.
Maybe throw in some other course of fire or two if more data seems relevant. Have all the shooters shoot it with .223 and some larger caliber. Maybe a 30-06 or similar. And shoot both from rifles that are similarly set up. So like a .223 T3X and a 30-06 T3x, both with same stock and scope.

I have some predictions how this would turn out. Would make an entertaining YouTube thing, kind of like the Backfire milk jug challenges.

I'm ok admitting when shooting 5 and 10 shot groups from different positions there is a measurable difference when moving from 223/6arc (which is basically the same for me) to 308 even. Still good groups but consistently bigger on average. I wish I had them all in the same platform.

 

[Formidilosus]

I think it would be great to organize a Rokslide shoot to prove or disprove some of these obvious things.

I’m sure shooter background plays a role in how well a person can shoot a large caliber. But I think the average effect has been discussed many many times here. Maybe this idea has even been posted before, but if not, here it is.

We should do a shoot to compare how much a shooter’s hit rate is affected. Mainly 100 yard drills to minimize effects of wind, weather, etc.

Get shooters of various backgrounds together, including at least a few big caliber believers that “know” they are capable of shooting a 300WM just as accurately as a .223.

Shoot the Rifle Kraft drill.
Shoot the Carl Ross Hunting drill.
Maybe throw in some other course of fire or two if more data seems relevant. Have all the shooters shoot it with .223 and some larger caliber. Maybe a 30-06 or similar. And shoot both from rifles that are similarly set up. So like a .223 T3X and a 30-06 T3x, both with same stock and scope.

I have some predictions how this would turn out. Would make an entertaining YouTube thing, kind of like the Backfire milk jug challenges.

It’s been done. And we’ve talked about doing an S2H thing just for that.

Fact: all else being equal- it is not possible to shoot a gun that moves more, as well as a gun that moves less. Doesn’t matter who you are, or how well you shoot big guns, or anything else- you can not shoot the same gun that moves more, as well as you can the same gun that moves less.

 

[HighUintas]

Tis the reason I wish I could elk hunt legally and effectively with a 40cal patched ball. My 58 moves quite a bit under recoil haha

 

[Speaks]

It’s been done. And we’ve talked about doing an S2H thing just for that.

Fact: all else being equal- it is not possible to shoot a gun that moves more, as well as a gun that moves less. Doesn’t matter who you are, or how well you shoot big guns, or anything else- you can not shoot the same gun that moves more, as well as you can the same gun that moves less.

Yea its really just laws of physics at that point. All else equal the heavier recoiling gun will be shot worse by some amount. At that point the only question is by how much.

For me personally the answer seems to be coming out to be a lot more than I would have thought.

 

[FredH]

For Hunting where the first shot counts and it is unlikely you will shoot more than 3 times if that I'm pretty sure most of us can put a very good hit on a deer with pretty much any rifle we are comfortable with. Shooting groups from a benchrest, getting up into ten rounds has nothing to do with any kind of hunting other than colony varmints. I have a shooting table right past my fence at the beginning of my driveway. I can pick a rifle and go sit at the bench and put a bullet from any of my tuned up hunting rifles exactly where I want it. Would 10 shot groups be bigger with say my 30-06 compared to my 243 or 223? Probably. How about one shot a day for ten days? Maybe but 1/4" isn't going to matter in a hunting situation just as we don't shoot ten shots at a deer.

Does recoil really figure into hunting scenarios? How many deer are shot from benchrests? How many shots are placed poorly because the shooter was excited? I have shot a lot of game and never noticed the recoil even with a 338 Win mag. If you flinch or pull the shot are you going to blame it on recoil or trigger control? For experienced hunters and shooters I'm pretty sure with a rifle I am used to shooting the first round is going exactly where I want it to Even from my 30-06, even from my 35 Whelen. I can say the same for my 22 ARC, my 223, my 243, my 257, my 260 Rem, my 7-08, my 7x57,my 280 AI or my 308.

 

[rbutcher1234]

For Hunting where the first shot counts and it is unlikely you will shoot more than 3 times if that I'm pretty sure most of us can put a very good hit on a deer with pretty much any rifle we are comfortable with. Shooting groups from a benchrest, getting up into ten rounds has nothing to do with any kind of hunting other than colony varmints. I have a shooting table right past my fence at the beginning of my driveway. I can pick a rifle and go sit at the bench and put a bullet from any of my tuned up hunting rifles exactly where I want it. Would 10 shot groups be bigger with say my 30-06 compared to my 243 or 223? Probably. How about one shot a day for ten days? Maybe but 1/4" isn't going to matter in a hunting situation just as we don't shoot ten shots at a deer.

Does recoil really figure into hunting scenarios? How many deer are shot from benchrests? How many shots are placed poorly because the shooter was excited? I have shot a lot of game and never noticed the recoil even with a 338 Win mag. If you flinch or pull the shot are you going to blame it on recoil or trigger control? For experienced hunters and shooters I'm pretty sure with a rifle I am used to shooting the first round is going exactly where I want it to Even from my 30-06, even from my 35 Whelen. I can say the same for my 22 ARC, my 223, my 243, my 257, my 260 Rem, my 7-08, my 7x57,my 280 AI or my 308.

Before I (or someone else) respond to this, genuine question: is this a troll post or a real post?

 

[Formidilosus]

For Hunting where the first shot counts and it is unlikely you will shoot more than 3 times if that

This is a fallacy. It has nothing to do with how often you shoot multiple shots. What is so magical about “I am a got-darn sniper with 3 shots, but at 4 shots I am a total boob”?

It’s just ridiculous. If you flinch at shot number 5- you are also flinching at shot number 1.

I'm pretty sure most of us can put a very good hit on a deer with pretty much any rifle we are comfortable with.

No one has said that lots of people can’t hit a deer at normal ranges lots of times. Again, a fallacy.

Shooting groups from a benchrest, getting up into ten rounds has nothing to do with any kind of hunting other than colony varmints.

Again- fallacy. The gentleman said field positional shooting as a comparison.

I have a shooting table right past my fence at the beginning of my driveway. I can pick a rifle and go sit at the bench and put a bullet from any of my tuned up hunting rifles exactly where I want it. Would 10 shot groups be bigger with say my 30-06 compared to my 243 or 223? Probably. How about one shot a day for ten days? Maybe but 1/4" isn't going to matter in a hunting situation just as we don't shoot ten shots at a deer.

It isn’t a 1/4” difference. It’s- “over the span of 100 random hunters, shooting 100 deer- each with a 223 and 100 deer with a 30/06: what is is the miss/loss/wound rate difference between them?”

Does recoil really figure into hunting scenarios? How many deer are shot from benchrests? How many shots are placed poorly because the shooter was excited?

Again- fallacy. Has nothing to do with what has been asked or stated.

I have shot a lot of game and never noticed the recoil even with a 338 Win mag.

And I bet there are times that you didn’t have pain from the unprotected shot either… but there still was permanent hearing damage from it. Almost everyone alive thinks they don’t flinch- yet when handed a rifle they believe is loaded- but isn’t, they damn near fall over from their seizure.

If you flinch or pull the shot are you going to blame it on recoil or trigger control?

What does trigger control have to do with casing a flinch?

For experienced hunters and shooters I'm pretty sure with a rifle I am used to shooting the first round is going exactly where I want it to Even from my 30-06, even from my 35 Whelen. I can say the same for my 22 ARC, my 223, my 243, my 257, my 260 Rem, my 7-08, my 7x57,my 280 AI or my 308.

“Exactly” where you want it? You’ve never missed? You’ve never put a poor shot in an animal?

 

[Formidilosus]

Before I (or someone else) respond to this, genuine question: is this a troll post or a real post?

It’s all troll and real from him. Read any of his posts and it’s all the same boomer generation nonsense.

 

[Speaks]

For Hunting where the first shot counts and it is unlikely you will shoot more than 3 times if that I'm pretty sure most of us can put a very good hit on a deer with pretty much any rifle we are comfortable with. Shooting groups from a benchrest, getting up into ten rounds has nothing to do with any kind of hunting other than colony varmints. I have a shooting table right past my fence at the beginning of my driveway. I can pick a rifle and go sit at the bench and put a bullet from any of my tuned up hunting rifles exactly where I want it. Would 10 shot groups be bigger with say my 30-06 compared to my 243 or 223? Probably. How about one shot a day for ten days? Maybe but 1/4" isn't going to matter in a hunting situation just as we don't shoot ten shots at a deer.

Does recoil really figure into hunting scenarios? How many deer are shot from benchrests? How many shots are placed poorly because the shooter was excited? I have shot a lot of game and never noticed the recoil even with a 338 Win mag. If you flinch or pull the shot are you going to blame it on recoil or trigger control? For experienced hunters and shooters I'm pretty sure with a rifle I am used to shooting the first round is going exactly where I want it to Even from my 30-06, even from my 35 Whelen. I can say the same for my 22 ARC, my 223, my 243, my 257, my 260 Rem, my 7-08, my 7x57,my 280 AI or my 308.

I dont really shoot from a bench other than zeroing a rifle or checking a new ammo. Shooing from field positions on my range either at groups or steel I shoot better with my 223 than my 270. Lets for the sake of argument call it 1 inch vs 2 inch. They are not the exact same gun and I am not saying its all due to recoil, thats beside the point.

Shooting a deer at 100 yards nearly always works fine for either. Take it out to 300 yards shooting at a 6 inch steel and hit rate changes noticeably. Either would still kill a deer just fine still at 300 with a perfect shot. But combine a less than perfect shot with the error caused by the gun/recoil and you may get a wounded animal.

If most people shoot better with less recoil over enough shots there will eventually be a difference in outcome. Would I hesitate to hunt with a 270 or 30-06 or larger? No I would not. But if a lower recoiling set up kills just as effectively and I shoot it better why not use it?

Im not sure I want to make 223 my long term deer rifle, though it worked just fine for me this year. But I also cant see why I would make it a 30-06 when I could use something in the ballpark of a 6CM and have the same terminal effect but with a higher probability of a good shot.

I am sure some shooters are less effected by recoil than others. The effect is never zero though.

 

[goalie]

I'm not "recoil sensitive" and still shoot stuff with my 45/70.

But there's simply no denying that I shoot better with less recoil.

For me it's a fact that less recoil= more shooting, and more shooting= better shooting.

Plus, I'm really liking watching shots hit steel with my 5.56.