.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[260madman]

Don’t worry, he won’t read about the moose and elk in here. It’s all hocus pocus fairy dust.

 

[PsRpOiGrRiAtM]

 

[Shraggs]

all I have to say

You read entire thread or just respond from first post?

 

[HaydenLane]

I do really hope that this thread doesn't lead to inexperienced hunters choosing the .223 and 77TMK without intimate knowledge of their guns, their intended game, state regulations, and a ton of practice. This combination would be illegal for use for larger species in many states for a reason. The average joe doesn't shoot that well and isn't very disciplined.

Those people probably shouldn’t be shooting at any animals, regardless of bullet/caliber selection.

 

[wind gypsy]

Those people probably shouldn’t be shooting at any animals, regardless of bullet/caliber selection.

Probably shouldn't but lets be honest... Over half of the hunters in this country know nothing about this stuff. They have a rifle of chambering they believe to be adequate, they buy ammo they can find for that cartridge, they make sure it's sighted to hit animal vitals at 100, and it's ready to hunt. None of this enters into their mind and frankly that works just fine most of the time.

 

[DangerRanger]

Not really looking for a better nut at the moment but might just shoot a deer with the 12.5 ar this year to see how this fares. Sounds like fun

 

[Laramie]

Those people probably shouldn’t be shooting at any animals, regardless of bullet/caliber selection.

There are a lot of people in the field yearly who shouldn't be shooting at animals. It seems yearly I have to explain to someone who bought a new rifle that bore sighting isn't good enough to take hunting. There are a lot of people in the field yearly who really don't have a clue. Then there are another decent percentage of people who know enough to do ok but they are by no means at a point where they should be using a marginal caliber. I personally believe that most hunters fall into this second category.

From what I have read in this thread by those promoting it, the caliber and bullet combination can be very effective, even up to a moose sized animal- IF the hunter understands the limitations of the cartridge and is taking responsible shots.

The average rookie may not take the time to ready every post here- he may scroll through, see pictures of devastation on a pile of deer and even a moose leg bone that was shattered, and have it in his head he is carrying the most powerful option there is. My original comment was referring to this scenario.

 

[Formidilosus]

From what I have read in this thread by those promoting it, the caliber and bullet combination can be very effective, even up to a moose sized animal- IF the hunter understands the limitations of the cartridge and is taking responsible shots.

What exactly is the limitation with it in comparison to any standard chamberings? Please be specific, I.E.- range, penetration depth, physiological damage, etc.

The average rookie may not take the time to ready every post here- he may scroll through, see pictures of devastation on a pile of deer and even a moose leg bone that was shattered, and have it in his head he is carrying the most powerful option there is.

What difference does that make what cartridge that person is using or looking at?

 

[Formidilosus]

There is not a single NA game animal I would even remotely hesitate to kill at will with the 223/77tmk combo at 450’ish yards and under.

 

[Castle Rock]

But... But...
My daddy never used one...
Just as well there was no internet when the 30/06 first came out, all the fudds of the day would be crying in their beer that you can’t kill anything with a puny .30 cal

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Thanks, got some coming

You hope. Last time I ordered from them, my order never shipped. I eventually gave up and cancelled at about double the time their site showed for shipping times.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

There is not a single NA game animal I would even remotely hesitate to kill at will with the 223/77tmk combo at 450’ish yards and under.

That's pretty darned remarkable. What would you estimate to be the sample size of game animals you have seen hit with 77TMK? Any danger of driving it too fast with a faster .22 ceneterfire? I am on the hunt for a fast twist 22-250 right now.

 

[Formidilosus]

That's pretty darned remarkable. What would you estimate to be the sample size of game animals you have seen hit with 77TMK? Any danger of driving it too fast with a faster .22 ceneterfire? I am on the hunt for a fast twist 22-250 right now.

From antelope to moose- over 200.

Impact velocities above 3k’ish will drop penetration. Really only will come into play at close range on really large game and leg bones. A moose humerus for instance. Other than that they do well from 22-250’s and 22 Creedmoors, etc. Though not as well as a 95gr would…

 

[Fire_9]

I’m sure it’s already been stated in the 57 pages of this thread but do all the TMK’s act the same?

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m sure it’s already been stated in the 57 pages of this thread but do all the TMK’s act the same?

Similar yes, but differences in penetration, and TC various with which one.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

I still don't like the idea of eating lead shrapnel. What needs to change with a copper bullet to replicate the TMK? I hear the Hammer Absolute's are achieving some ridiculous speeds out of guys hand loads, and I believe they are designed to shed petals., as well as being softer copper. What construction change/caliber bump does it take to match the TMK performance with minimal recoil gains?

I know my 30-06AI achieves great death and destruction capability with a 168 gr TTSX, but I also have seen the slower killing that comes with a one inch hole through the lungs vs. something like a Hornady SST. Lets just say you step from the .223 to a .243 or a .257 Roberts. Can those push copper fast enough to mimic the .223/TMK combo if the copper bullet were designed to be more frangible?

 

[Formidilosus]

I still don't like the idea of eating lead shrapnel.

Stop buying into propaganda. Lead is not digested and absorbed as the narrative goes.

Lets just say you step from the .223 to a .243 or a .257 Roberts. Can those push copper fast enough to mimic the .223/TMK combo if the copper bullet were designed to be more frangible?

No, here is not a copper projectile that will behave as a fragmenting lead bullet- at any caliber or grain weight.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Stop buying into propaganda. Lead is not digested and absorbed as the narrative goes.

I'd greatly appreciate sources for this.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

I'd greatly appreciate sources for this.

Also, I didn't mean that to sound belligerent, sorry. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and insight, as well as a love for bang flop terminal performance on game.

FWIW, here's all I've been able to find on the topic so far:

Effects of meals and meal times on uptake of lead from the gastrointestinal tract in humans - PubMed

Twenty three adults ingested 203Pb as lead acetate on the 12th hour of a 19 h fast. Retention measured 7 days later in a whole-body counter was 61% and whole-body turnover rates suggested that initial uptake had been considerably greater. Balanced meals eaten with 203Pb reduced lead uptake to 4%...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

While promising, this research does not exactly make it clear that any old meal will drastically reduce lead absorption in the body.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'd greatly appreciate sources for this.

I’ve written/argued quite a bit about it. You’d have to search my posts.