.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[mt100gr.]

I don’t have a chronograph, so I was just guessing based on what others have posted. I was going to see how high or low I was and tinker with the velocity to match the drop.

I have a 20" T3x shooting the Unknown 77 TMK load with 8208 right at 2700fps. I called them a while back and IIRC, it was around that 23.5-24.0gr charge weight. I'd enter 2725 in your app and hope your impacts are a hair high! I have a pile of the components but haven't loaded any myself to match the unknown load. Its money, tho! And I have stretched it out plenty.

 

[rclouse79]

I have a 20" T3x shooting the Unknown 77 TMK load with 8208 right at 2700fps. I called them a while back and IIRC, it was around that 23.5-24.0gr charge weight. I'd enter 2725 in your app and hope your impacts are a hair high! I have a pile of the components but haven't loaded any myself to match the unknown load. Its money, tho! And I have stretched it out plenty.

I ended up going out to shoot and was high at 440. I bumped the velocity up to 2800 on the ab quantum app where I would have been on at that range. I tested it at 650 and was dead nuts. I was happy enough with the results that I took my main 270 hunting rifle in get a threaded 25-06 barrel put on it. If I have any troubles getting a load worked up for the new barrel I will just hunt with the 223 for the rest of bear season.

 

[mt100gr.]

I ended up going out to shoot and was low at 440. I bumped the velocity up to 2800 on the ab quantum app where I would have been on at that range. I tested it at 650 and was dead nuts. I was happy enough with the results that I took my main 270 hunting rifle in get a threaded 25-06 barrel put on it. If I have any troubles getting a load worked up for the new barrel I will just hunt with the 223 for the rest of bear season.

That's awesome! I think I'll be giving that 23.7gr charge weight a fair shake when I finally run out of the UM ammo!

 

[JPW13]

Hey everyone,

I had an interesting experience this weekend hunting bears with an 80 ELDM that I thought I’d share. I found a bear at relatively short range and made a good shot. It was clear the bear was going down, but it didn’t react dramatically. It walked a short distance, fell over, rolled around a bit, and then, because we were on a steep hill, it managed to get back on its feet and started walking again. I took a second shot, and that caused the bear to run off. It eventually died, but it took some time to find it.

My main concern here is the lack of any sign to track. There was no blood trail, and despite being in a pretty open old burn, tracking was nearly impossible. The internal damage from the 80 ELDM was catastrophic, no question there, but the lack of a blood trail made recovery tough. This got me thinking about the suitability of the .224 bullets in different environments. In open terrain, it might be fine, but in thick, old-growth forest where I often hunt a lethally shot bear could easily vanish. Deer I’ve been able to track hooves, bears - not so much.

Speaking of deer, I used my 223 and 22 Creedmoor with 77TMK and 80 ELDM successfully on multiple deer last fall, and it performed well, but the same issue persists: minimal blood trails. It’s clear that the cartridge is lethal, especially with the right bullet, but the tracking challenge is significant.

So, I’m left wondering if my .224 rifles are best reserved for specific conditions. Do I need to choose my hunting grounds more carefully when using it? Are there any suggestions on overcoming this issue, like shot placement adjustments to drop the bear (or deer) more quickly? Obviously, at close range, a head or neck shot is possible, but at longer ranges, which is where, at least my 22 Creedmoor shines, a head shot isn’t ethical. And if I aim for the boiler room, it seems like I’m risking losing the bear in certain environments, potentially even a deer if I can’t pick up prints.

Would appreciate any thoughts or similar experiences!

 

[rabbithuntr]

Hey everyone,

I had an interesting experience this weekend hunting bears with an 80 ELDM that I thought I’d share. I found a bear at relatively short range and made a good shot. It was clear the bear was going down, but it didn’t react dramatically. It walked a short distance, fell over, rolled around a bit, and then, because we were on a steep hill, it managed to get back on its feet and started walking again. I took a second shot, and that caused the bear to run off. It eventually died, but it took some time to find it.

My main concern here is the lack of any sign to track. There was no blood trail, and despite being in a pretty open old burn, tracking was nearly impossible. The internal damage from the 80 ELDM was catastrophic, no question there, but the lack of a blood trail made recovery tough. This got me thinking about the suitability of the .224 bullets in different environments. In open terrain, it might be fine, but in thick, old-growth forest where I often hunt a lethally shot bear could easily vanish. Deer I’ve been able to track hooves, bears - not so much.

Speaking of deer, I used my 223 and 22 Creedmoor with 77TMK and 80 ELDM successfully on multiple deer last fall, and it performed well, but the same issue persists: minimal blood trails. It’s clear that the cartridge is lethal, especially with the right bullet, but the tracking challenge is significant.

So, I’m left wondering if my .224 rifles are best reserved for specific conditions. Do I need to choose my hunting grounds more carefully when using it? Are there any suggestions on overcoming this issue, like shot placement adjustments to drop the bear (or deer) more quickly? Obviously, at close range, a head or neck shot is possible, but at longer ranges, which is where, at least my 22 Creedmoor shines, a head shot isn’t ethical. And if I aim for the boiler room, it seems like I’m risking losing the bear in certain environments, potentially even a deer if I can’t pick up prints.

Would appreciate any thoughts or similar experiences!

I’m color blind so I’ve never been able to blood trail, the idea of a tracking dog does seem appealing but that does bring up another set of issues perhaps.

 

[Formidilosus]

Hey everyone,

I had an interesting experience this weekend hunting bears with an 80 ELDM that I thought I’d share. I found a bear at relatively short range and made a good shot. It was clear the bear was going down, but it didn’t react dramatically. It walked a short distance, fell over, rolled around a bit, and then, because we were on a steep hill, it managed to get back on its feet and started walking again. I took a second shot, and that caused the bear to run off. It eventually died, but it took some time to find it.

My main concern here is the lack of any sign to track. There was no blood trail, and despite being in a pretty open old burn, tracking was nearly impossible. The internal damage from the 80 ELDM was catastrophic, no question there, but the lack of a blood trail made recovery tough. This got me thinking about the suitability of the .224 bullets in different environments. In open terrain, it might be fine, but in thick, old-growth forest where I often hunt a lethally shot bear could easily vanish. Deer I’ve been able to track hooves, bears - not so much.

Speaking of deer, I used my 223 and 22 Creedmoor with 77TMK and 80 ELDM successfully on multiple deer last fall, and it performed well, but the same issue persists: minimal blood trails. It’s clear that the cartridge is lethal, especially with the right bullet, but the tracking challenge is significant.

So, I’m left wondering if my .224 rifles are best reserved for specific conditions. Do I need to choose my hunting grounds more carefully when using it? Are there any suggestions on overcoming this issue, like shot placement adjustments to drop the bear (or deer) more quickly? Obviously, at close range, a head or neck shot is possible, but at longer ranges, which is where, at least my 22 Creedmoor shines, a head shot isn’t ethical. And if I aim for the boiler room, it seems like I’m risking losing the bear in certain environments, potentially even a deer if I can’t pick up prints.

Would appreciate any thoughts or similar experiences!

Bears don’t leave a blood trail frequently regardless of caliber. Some bleed a bunch, most don’t.

 

[JPW13]

Bears don’t leave a blood trail frequently regardless of caliber. Some bleed a bunch, most don’t.

That has been my experience as well and so I’ve trended to big cartridges. They have died within sight or I’ve had blood or both. My sample of one bear isn’t significant and I’ll try again, but my deer were the same - no blood. All good in open country, but that’s not always where I hunt, so looking for suggestions. CNS the deer? Doesn’t seem to be commonplace for bears.

 

[Matt5266]

If you want to follow a blood trail on a bear shoot them with a bow.

 

[Taudisio]

That has been my experience as well and so I’ve trended to big cartridges. They have died within sight or I’ve had blood or both. My sample of one bear isn’t significant and I’ll try again, but my deer were the same - no blood. All good in open country, but that’s not always where I hunt, so looking for suggestions. CNS the deer? Doesn’t seem to be commonplace for bears.

I have noticed the same. An exit hole is definitely preferable on bears. Hell, I’ve even lost one with a 300wsm and one with a 30nosler (almost two with the Nosler). Shot placement definitely helps. The largest bear blood trail I have ever seen was with a 30-06, and it was only an entrance wound, shot full frontal low in the chest at 30 yards. It’s a hard balance to find that right amount of expansion, penetration, and recoil.
I have shot one deer with the 60gr nosler partition before knowing about this thread and the tmk/eldms. I got an exit and a good enough blood trail in red madrone leaves to find the deer. I’m sure it’s been discussed earlier in this thread, but what were your thoughts on the 60g partition in terms of expansion and penetration vs the TMK @Formidilosus ?

 

[JPW13]

If you want to follow a blood trail on a bear shoot them with a bow.

I’m never sure what my take-away from a comment like this is supposed to be? I have shot bears with bows and absolutely they bleed well. But how does that translate to a rifle, a small caliber, and longer range? Are you subtlety insinuating a big mono that will perform more like a broad head is better? Or?

 

[Schmo]

I’m never sure what my take-away from a comment like this is supposed to be? I have shot bears with bows and absolutely they bleed well. But how does that translate to a rifle, a small caliber, and longer range? Are you subtlety insinuating a big mono that will perform more like a broad head is better? Or?

I think he meant it just as it reads. With a rifle, you aren’t “guaranteed” a blood trail. 223 works just as good as a 30 cal. If you shot a 30 cal, you wouldn’t be guaranteed a trail either.

 

[Matt5266]

I’m never sure what my take-away from a comment like this is supposed to be? I have shot bears with bows and absolutely they bleed well. But how does that translate to a rifle, a small caliber, and longer range? Are you subtlety insinuating a big mono that will perform more like a broad head is better? Or?

No I'm simply stating I've shot bears with rifles and bows and I only really ever get a good blood trail when using archery tackle.

You wont catch me recommending monos.

 

[KHntr]

If you want to follow a blood trail on a bear shoot them with a bow.

Or a spear… That will leave a pretty good blood trail too.

 

[JPW13]

I think he meant it just as it reads. With a rifle, you aren’t “guaranteed” a blood trail. 223 works just as good as a 30 cal. If you shot a 30 cal, you wouldn’t be guaranteed a trail either.

No doubt throwing razor blades through a bear makes for some good bleeding. But why is that? My guess is it's the hole in and out that changes "pressure" in chest cavity (deflating lungs) and also pushing blood out. One thing I've found with all my kills with the 77 and 80 is that when I get an exit it's the basically the size of the entry, they are (relatively) tiny holes.

If an arrow makes an 1" to 1.5" cut on the in and out and that leads to great blood trail, would it not follow that a bullet that opens more and exits would exhibit the same characteristics? A .308 isn't expanding to an 1", but it's certainly going to be a lot closer than a .224 isn't it?

 

[JPW13]

Or a spear… That will leave a pretty good blood trail too.

Sadly I can't throw a spear at the distances I can accurately shoot a 223, but your arm might be better than mine...

 

[Formidilosus]

No doubt throwing razor blades through a bear makes for some good bleeding. But why is that? My guess is it's the hole in and out that changes "pressure" in chest cavity (deflating lungs) and also pushing blood out. One thing I've found with all my kills with the 77 and 80 is that when I get an exit it's the basically the size of the entry, they are (relatively) tiny holes.

If an arrow makes an 1" to 1.5" cut on the in and out and that leads to great blood trail, would it not follow that a bullet that opens more and exits would exhibit the same characteristics? A .308 isn't expanding to an 1", but it's certainly going to be a lot closer than a .224 isn't it?

I’ve seen bears killed with .224, 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, 30cal, and 338. None have produced consistent blood trails. Even 300 mags producing 2-3” exit holes haven’t bled that much. Fat and hair absorb so much blood, that I didn’t use that as a factor for bears. I want to create massive damage in vitals and limit how far they run.

 

[atmat]

No doubt throwing razor blades through a bear makes for some good bleeding. But why is that? My guess is it's the hole in and out that changes "pressure" in chest cavity (deflating lungs) and also pushing blood out. One thing I've found with all my kills with the 77 and 80 is that when I get an exit it's the basically the size of the entry, they are (relatively) tiny holes.

If an arrow makes an 1" to 1.5" cut on the in and out and that leads to great blood trail, would it not follow that a bullet that opens more and exits would exhibit the same characteristics? A .308 isn't expanding to an 1", but it's certainly going to be a lot closer than a .224 isn't it?

I’ve never killed nor seen a bear killed with a bow. I’ve seen two with a 300wm and neither produced particularly good blood trails.

I just chalked it up to fat filling the holes — but I assume it would do the same with arrows.

 

[KHntr]

Sadly I can't throw a spear at the distances I can accurately shoot a 223, but your arm might be better than mine...

Stabbing spears, not throwing spears… Although a stabbing spear can be thrown accurately enough out to 9 yards.

Before it became illegal in BC I spear hunted bears (successfully) some when I would find one in a good spot for the stalk.

 

[JPW13]

Stabbing spears, not throwing spears… Although a stabbing spear can be thrown accurately enough out to 9 yards.

Before it became illegal in BC I spear hunted bears (successfully) some when I would find one in a good spot for the stalk.

That’s badass.

 

[Thegman]

No doubt throwing razor blades through a bear makes for some good bleeding. But why is that? My guess is it's the hole in and out that changes "pressure" in chest cavity (deflating lungs) and also pushing blood out. One thing I've found with all my kills with the 77 and 80 is that when I get an exit it's the basically the size of the entry, they are (relatively) tiny holes.

If an arrow makes an 1" to 1.5" cut on the in and out and that leads to great blood trail, would it not follow that a bullet that opens more and exits would exhibit the same characteristics? A .308 isn't expanding to an 1", but it's certainly going to be a lot closer than a .224 isn't it?

So far, my experience with 223 exits, when they happen, have often (not always) been similar to yours. I think that's just one of the tradeoffs. They absolutely kill very well, but good blood trails, IME, seem to be more frequent with various 30 caliber bullets - though not even close to 100% with those either.

From what I've seen here, it seems like if you want to maximize exit size from a 223, something like a Maker bullet moves in that direction. Maybe an 80 ELD-X would tend in that direction as well (?). Sounds like @Taudisio saw something similar from a Partition, at least in one case. Seems with almost all bullets of all calibers, there's a tradeoff between internal terminal performance and exits.