.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[RC51kid]

Correct me if i am wrong. But it looks like the consensus is a 77gr TMK is GTG on game. I know the TMK is a Sierra. But is there a particular brand or type of ammo you guys are using? Or as long as it is actual 77gr Sierra TMK in a quality load it is GTG?

I have a T3x in 6.5 Creedmoor that i am happy to use for longer range or larger game. But have a nice handy 16" Geissele AR that i would like to use for shorter range, faster fallow ups and when a short compact rifle is nice. Mostly thinking deer and hogs.

I was talking to a friend the other night and the possibility of going to a frinds ranch in Texas for hogs and axis deer came up. I was thinking a handy 16" AR would be nice if I can find the right ammo.

 

[Veloci_Wrench]

Correct me if i am wrong. But it looks like the consensus is a 77gr TMK is GTG on game. I know the TMK is a Sierra. But is there a particular brand or type of ammo you guys are using? Or as long as it is actual 77gr Sierra TMK in a quality load it is GTG?

I have a T3x in 6.5 Creedmoor that i am happy to use for longer range or larger game. But have a nice handy 16" Geissele AR that i would like to use for shorter range, faster fallow ups and when a short compact rifle is nice. Mostly thinking deer and hogs.

I was talking to a friend the other night and the possibility of going to a frinds ranch in Texas for hogs and axis deer came up. I was thinking a handy 16" AR would be nice if I can find the right ammo.

Not to be mean, but if you have read enough of this thread, then your questions would already be answered.

It’s all about the projectile and the impact velocity. Your 16” AR with the 77 TMK is good out to 400 yards on all NA big game. Find a load that your gun shoots well, and buy a lot of it. You really only need your creedmoor if there are caliber restrictions in your state.

 

[atmat]

Okay here would be the plan for a brown/grizzly bear this spring. I'm heavily involved with Cross Trail Outfitters which is basically a Christian mentoring program for young men via hunting and fishing trips. They do some great work if anyone is interested in helping out or sending a kid on a trip.

https://www.friendsofcto.org/state-giving/alaska

Last year the boys shot three black bears.

So if we see a bear there is a very high chance that I won't be the shooter. More then likely I'll have a 12-14 year old boy shooting first with me as backup. So to be honest, we'll try for a grizzly but if I have a 13 year old on his first hunt I'm not going to say "no" to a black bear that is right there to wait for a grizzly that might not show up.

Here is our basic plan for whole spring to fall hunting season

May - We put out bear baits in a couple locations (for later in June). Depending on snow levels we hope to backpack hunting in the mountains. This is fun hunting. The Kenia is one destination. I might or might not try a more remote hunt with another guy, probably an adult trip that would be a bit too crazy for kids.

June - I'll be sitting on bear baits with the CTO boys pretty much every weekend. Almost a sure thing we kill some black bears. Grizzlies tend to be less consistent but we might get a shot at one.
View attachment 673060
July - Sort of a slow month but we might go hiking in the mountains to explore for bears and scout new moose hunting areas.

August - Bears start eating berries in the mountains and they don't tend to roam as far. We almost had a grizzly this way last fall but he gave us the slip. We did get a black bear and two other friends of mine got bears.
View attachment 673061
September - This is more up in the air. Berry bears are still easy to hunt (not counting the hike up the mountain) but its moose season too. If I have time we do a 10 day moose hunt in an area that often has grizzlies. If we don't have that much time we'll do weekend trips focused on spot and stack bears on berries. Its more of a black bear area but if there are grizzlies they tend to be doing the same thing (eating berries). We'd definitely chase a grizzly if we saw one.

So there is the plan if someone wants to loan us a rifle for a part of that period we'd do our best to bloody it with as many species as possible with a priority on a grizzly kill. I usually film our hunts so I could get the autopsy on video too.

A 16 inch barrel would be perfect because I'd probably stick a suppressor on it. As far as stocks I like the normal stock just fine. I'd actually prefer NOT to have a special ROkstock on it because its the part most likely to be damaged in shipping or broken if a boy takes a fall, steep places we hunt.
View attachment 673063
Actually if no one objected I might stick a compact stock on there for our smaller guys.

Sending a PM.

 

[grappling_hook]

I'm also down for coastal brown bear with the AR/77gr TMK this year. Didn't run across one deer hunting in brown bear country last fall, but I'll be poking around this spring for black and brown bears specifically. Maybe 2024 will bring a handful of brown/grizzly bears downed with the 77 TMK to this thread.

 

[Luke S]

Looking like I might have a .223 to try out. This should be fun. Hopefully my 2nd suppressor is out of jail too. If it works as advertised I might start building one of those ultralight ultralight ARs.

 

[zdc1775]

Looking like I might have a .223 to try out. This should be fun. Hopefully my 2nd suppressor is out of jail too. If it works as advertised I might start building one of those ultralight ultralight ARs.

Awesome that you've found a rifle to take hunting for bear this year.

However I would advise against the ultra-ultralight AR. I run tactical rifle and pistol courses as my side-gig and I have seen way too many reliability issues with the super ultra rifle that have came to the classes. Some of those have been minor, like failure to feed or light strikes, but quite a few have been major, like BCG's bulging or cracking and gas blocks blowing out.

But don't let that complete dissuade you, you can easily build a reliable AR that falls right around 5ish pounds.

 

[wind gypsy]

Correct me if i am wrong. But it looks like the consensus is a 77gr TMK is GTG on game. I know the TMK is a Sierra. But is there a particular brand or type of ammo you guys are using? Or as long as it is actual 77gr Sierra TMK in a quality load it is GTG?

I have a T3x in 6.5 Creedmoor that i am happy to use for longer range or larger game. But have a nice handy 16" Geissele AR that i would like to use for shorter range, faster fallow ups and when a short compact rifle is nice. Mostly thinking deer and hogs.

I was talking to a friend the other night and the possibility of going to a frinds ranch in Texas for hogs and axis deer came up. I was thinking a handy 16" AR would be nice if I can find the right ammo.

Stand 1, Black hills, and AAC all load the 77 TMK in factory ammunition.

 

[Reddish]

It has not been evaled. I have used them a bit, and what I’ve seen they have worked fine in normal use- I am not saying they are on the same reliability and durability level as NF, SWFA, etc. But, 100% I would choose them over what people were suggesting earlier.





Nothing is in the works. If someone wants to send one in I/we would.

PM sent on this.

 

[crich]

Looking like I might have a .223 to try out. This should be fun. Hopefully my 2nd suppressor is out of jail too. If it works as advertised I might start building one of those ultralight ultralight ARs.

Hope you and the boys can come across some brownies. I have a M77 in .223 that I might take when we hit the beaches this spring. I just need to get ahold of some loaded TMK's first. I have a few hundred TMK bullets and powders out the wazoo but havent actually jumped into reloading yet with 2 kids in diapers... time is limited.

I looked into the youth program you attached a link for pretty cool stuff

 

[BLJ]

Hope you and the boys can come across some brownies. I have a M77 in .223 that I might take when we hit the beaches this spring. I just need to get ahold of some loaded TMK's first. I have a few hundred TMK bullets and powders out the wazoo but havent actually jumped into reloading yet with 2 kids in diapers... time is limited.

I looked into the youth program you attached a link for pretty cool stuff

Don’t know if you’ve looked into it, but to my knowledge some of the older 77’s had a slower twist.
From your post it’s not clear whether you were intending to use the 77’s or 69’s.
Maybe difficult to stabilize the 77’ in anything other than 1/8 twist.
Something to consider.

 

[crich]

Don’t know if you’ve looked into it, but to my knowledge some of the older 77’s had a slower twist.
From your post it’s not clear whether you were intending to use the 77’s or 69’s.
Maybe difficult to stabilize the 77’ in anything other than 1/8 twist.
Something to consider.

Good point I honestly havent touched that gun in at least 5 years. I have several ARs that are 1/8 and 1/7 that could do the trick. There is also a Sprtsmans close that has a T3X in stock too.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Good point I honestly havent touched that gun in at least 5 years. I have several ARs that are 1/8 and 1/7 that could do the trick. There is also a Sprtsmans close that has a T3X in stock too.

 

[crich]

View attachment 673621

I have 4 bought my first T3 in 2015. Whats one more right?

 

[RC51kid]

Looking like I might have a .223 to try out. This should be fun. Hopefully my 2nd suppressor is out of jail too. If it works as advertised I might start building one of those ultralight ultralight ARs.

Let me give my opinion on this. I have built a bunvh of ARs over the years but am no expert at all. EVERY problem I personally have had has been as i deviate away "mil spec" parts. Not tru mil spec but lets say "quality standard" AR15 parts. Also using "non standard" parts makes it harder to repair, replace and update in the future. All of the malfunctions i have ever had have been when i messed with spring rates, buffers, magazines or BCG. Now I tend to stick with quality "standard" AR parts if possible. Obviously on my Grendel or other calibers some of that isnt possible and i will tune it with buffers or gas systems. But with 5.56 just stick with QUALITY standard parts.

Also you spend a LOT of money and get non standard parts trying to save 1oz on parts like recivers, buffer tubes, BCG and those things.

All that being said. Parts like stock and grip, find ergos you like and be consious of weight. Stocks alone can range in weight be 5oz. Hand guards have ahuge range of weight. If you are not using NV or aiming devices on your rail a nice light carbon rail will make a huge difference in a are that will really be felt. Even a simple BCM rail is relatively light, cheap and pretty good quality. Barrel weight is another thing. I really like the Gunner profile barrels for how they handle. Trimming weight off the muzzel end is the most important to me.

But you also mentioned suppressors. I switched feom a AAC SDN6 at 20+ oz to a Nomad Ti at 12oz. Absolutely night and day difference. All that weight removed right off the muzzel. So pick the right suppressor for the job. The light barrels handle nice and hunting shouldnt heat up the barrel with just a few shots. But the ultra thin barrels do give me more POI shift. For me it is repeatable and i always run supressed. So no big deal. But my last build i went a little heavier to decrease POI shift. But barrel weight and profile is extremely important in how the rifle will handle.

Also look at weight on scopes and mounts. I really like Larue mounts but they are almost 8oz. I also used a Aero mount which is 3.5oz. Thats 4.5 oz right there. The aero worked well but i didnt have confidence in it and switched to a DD mount at 5.5oz. The DD, Nightforce and Reptila are all around 5.5oz. Thats about 3oz lighter than a lot of mounts. Optics are also a big weight factor. Choose carefully and they will completely change the way the rifle handles.

My point is that i would skip the lightweight go fast parts on the internals critical parts. You can still build a very reasonably light weight rifle by avoiding needlessly heavy parts. For example i love the Geissele rails. But dont have any becouse i dont want that weight that far forward on my rifles. Now if i was running IR aiming devices where rigidity was key it might be worth it for me. Or on one of my SBRs the weight difference on a 9" rail is not as big. But a 13" quadrail or Geissele is a LOT heavier than a 13" carbon fiber rail or even a BCM rail.

Its all a compromise. I built my Grendel to be light. Used a Gunnar profile barrel a cheap used Odin Works rail that weighs nothing, aero mount (originaly) and a VX5HD 2-10 at 18oz. Handled like a dream. Next build in 5.56 I used a light weight match barrel that was still "light" but about 4oz heavier, DD scope mount, and a Centurion CMR rail (bomber but still only 10oz). I wanted a little more durability and accuracy/less POI shift. Still a handi rifle but the small amount of weight difference is noticable.

 

[Luke S]

Yeah, I've generally heard going lighter on ARs tends to introduce more complications. If I'm making a semi auto AR I'd keep it fairly conventional because I'd want to be 100% reliable if I ticked of a grizzly. If I really wanted to trim weight I'd consider one of the manually operated ARs with a poly lower etc. I assume that would resolve some of those issues but you'd still have a more fragile gun with a slower rate of fire. It would be a fun project but I don't know if I'd use it enough to justify the cost.

But back to focus of the thread...

I need to start handloading some TMKS. The advantage of a .223 is I can take the kids out and have them cheaply bang away at longer range targets to see how they do. I'm not up for super long range shooting but after caribou hunting with kids I'm beginning to think a carefully place 300 yard shot might be more likely to work then a rushed 100 yard shot with a kid who thinks he needs to shoot RIGHT NOW. I never felt comfortable letting kids shoot a .308 for too long between the cost and the chance that someone started to flinch.

I really want to get a spring grizzly with a .223 just so I can compare and see how it works. If I like what I see a whole new world of spending will open up...

Easy button would be a Tikka, especially as a kid's rifle.

Maybe a lighter weight AR, possibly in SBR for the adult to carry (bear defense, etc.)

Or fiddle with some kind of bolt action and make a sub 5 pound .223 with a solid scope and the suppresssor. Something like that Uberlight Kimber but in .223.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Yeah, I've generally heard going lighter on ARs tends to introduce more complications. If I'm making a semi auto AR I'd keep it fairly conventional because I'd want to be 100% reliable if I ticked of a grizzly. If I really wanted to trim weight I'd consider one of the manually operated ARs with a poly lower etc. I assume that would resolve some of those issues but you'd still have a more fragile gun with a slower rate of fire. It would be a fun project but I don't know if I'd use it enough to justify the cost.

But back to focus of the thread...

I need to start handloading some TMKS. The advantage of a .223 is I can take the kids out and have them cheaply bang away at longer range targets to see how they do. I'm not up for super long range shooting but after caribou hunting with kids I'm beginning to think a carefully place 300 yard shot might be more likely to work then a rushed 100 yard shot with a kid who thinks he needs to shoot RIGHT NOW. I never felt comfortable letting kids shoot a .308 for too long between the cost and the chance that someone started to flinch.

I really want to get a spring grizzly with a .223 just so I can compare and see how it works. If I like what I see a whole new world of spending will open up...

Easy button would be a Tikka, especially as a kid's rifle.

Maybe a lighter weight AR, possibly in SBR for the adult to carry (bear defense, etc.)

Or fiddle with some kind of bolt action and make a sub 5 pound .223 with a solid scope and the suppresssor. Something like that Uberlight Kimber but in .223.

T3x Compact cut and threaded with a can, vertical grip, UM or Sportsmatch T084 rings with a SWFA 6x milquad mil/mil is the simplest ‘easy button’ solution.

 

[crich]

Yeah, I've generally heard going lighter on ARs tends to introduce more complications. If I'm making a semi auto AR I'd keep it fairly conventional because I'd want to be 100% reliable if I ticked of a grizzly. If I really wanted to trim weight I'd consider one of the manually operated ARs with a poly lower etc. I assume that would resolve some of those issues but you'd still have a more fragile gun with a slower rate of fire. It would be a fun project but I don't know if I'd use it enough to justify the cost.

But back to focus of the thread...

I need to start handloading some TMKS. The advantage of a .223 is I can take the kids out and have them cheaply bang away at longer range targets to see how they do. I'm not up for super long range shooting but after caribou hunting with kids I'm beginning to think a carefully place 300 yard shot might be more likely to work then a rushed 100 yard shot with a kid who thinks he needs to shoot RIGHT NOW. I never felt comfortable letting kids shoot a .308 for too long between the cost and the chance that someone started to flinch.

I really want to get a spring grizzly with a .223 just so I can compare and see how it works. If I like what I see a whole new world of spending will open up...

Easy button would be a Tikka, especially as a kid's rifle.

Maybe a lighter weight AR, possibly in SBR for the adult to carry (bear defense, etc.)

Or fiddle with some kind of bolt action and make a sub 5 pound .223 with a solid scope and the suppresssor. Something like that Uberlight Kimber but in .223.

Do you reload?

 

[Luke S]

Yes I reload. Haven't had time to lately with family obligations so I'll probably run factory ammo for everything except hunting/site in loads for the .223. I stocked up on good 6.5 Grendal ammo and .308 ammo already.

 

[sierracharlie338]

I have 4 bought my first T3 in 2015. Whats one more right?

Exactly!

 

[PNWGATOR]

Was that Humerus from your Ex's moose in 2020 the front or off side leg? That thing was obliterated.

Front.

There is ZERO concern or doubt this combination delivers a substantial wound channel within terminal velocity perimeters.