.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[11Justin22]

See... this is what I'm sayin... what was "incorrect" about his post? Are you arguing that he hasn't killed the number of animals he says says he has? Or do you just disagree with HIS opinion (based on what sounds like a not insignificant amount of experience) about the reasonable limitations he perceives in the 223? You also imply that he didn't use the tmk... maybe he did?? Do you know this guy and know otherwise? Maybe he used 62gr gold dots, or 73 eldm, or 75 eldm, or any other bullets regarded in this thread as being "almost" as good as the tmk... you don't know what he used...

That said... your anecdotal evidence you provided from your personal experience was enlightening and valuable to the discussion. Thank you for your valid and relevant contribution.

"A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection."

This is what is incorrect. His whole post/argument/view is based on that and as such is invalid because IT IS NOT TRUE. Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge. A smaller caliber with a rapidly expanding bullet will exhibit larger wounds than a larger caliber with mono bullets. I used the .223 TMK because that is what this thread is about but I have other examples of .243/6.5 creed exhibiting more damage than 30/06/300WM. There's a video on YouTube where a guy compares ballistic gelatin from a .50bmg to a 6creed. 6 creed had a significantly larger wound. How you ask....... Because he used a rapidly expanding bullet in the creed and a fmj in the bmg.......Bullets matter more than head stamps.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Perhaps you could expound on that a bit... cause it sounds like you are implying that you'd pick the 223rem if you want to hit stuff... and anyone who doesn't use a 223... isn't going to hit stuff??

I haven't taken the hundreds and hundreds of big game animals that Form says he has... but between myself and my kids, wife, nieces, nephews, and other family members or friends who use my rifles to hunt... we are well over 60 deer, elk, or antelope in the last 7 years or so. Mostly with young, inexperienced hunters... and we have lost only 3 animals that were shot at... two due to scope issues, (no animals died that we didnt recover) one clean miss with a kid rushing the shot, one of the scope issue shots was also a clean miss, and the 3rd, the bullet grazed the animal (non mortal wound). Calibers including 243win, 6.5cm, 7mm08, 308win, 270win, 300wm, 28-nosler. Most were with the 6.5cm and 300wm. All but a couple were one shot kills, and the few that took a second shot were lethal, but a follow up shot seemed wise at the time. Many shots in the 400-550 range. Most in the 300-400 range, and some in the sub 300 yards category. Almost all of our hunting is done on foot, at least 2-3 miles from the truck, mostly with the 2000ft or more in elevation gain... so not easy conditions.

So... I'd say we have a pretty high "hit rate" with calibers other than the 223rem.

That said... I ensure every kid is fully supported every time, they don't take running shots, we start with accurate loads, scopes are dialed to particular ranges, and they don't take long shots under extreme conditions (ie a heavy crosswind, etc).

In all sincerity, it’s about hit rates and wound channels.

Don’t over complicate this.

Teach your kids to be rifleman. Sincerely.

 

[Billy Goat]

Maybe change.223 in the thread title to 77 TMK? Then we can get back to the gory pics?

That does away with the Fudd trap.

 

[Moose83]

In all sincerity, it’s about hit rates and wound channels.

Don’t over complicate this.

Teach your kids to be rifleman. Sincerely.

This^^^^^. I've shot more rounds through my .223 in the last month in meaningful practice than I put through my .30-06 in the last 6 months. The improvement in my shooting has been eye opening and I'm only getting started. Quit bickering and go shooting instead☺

 

[packgoatguy]

As far as components go......it ain't like it was. I'm really not sure it ever will be again
That being said, within the last month or so, I've been able to find loaded 77 tmk, powder and bullets and primers. You just have to work at it a wee bit.
Now, a left handed 223 superlite is another story.

Randy

Left handed t3x stainless in 6.5cm on a utah classifieds forum. I can pm you the link if you like. Maybe it's worth rebarreling if you can't find the 223 you want.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Left handed t3x stainless in 6.5cm on a utah classifieds forum. I can pm you the link if you like. Maybe it's worth rebarreling if you can't find the 223 you want.

Thank you for the thought but the bolt face is different.

Randy

 

[huck]

PNWGATOR has it right . but to answer your ? 300 a little better # .

 

[packgoatguy]

"A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection."

This is what is incorrect. His whole post/argument/view is based on that and as such is invalid because IT IS NOT TRUE. Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge. A smaller caliber with a rapidly expanding bullet will exhibit larger wounds than a larger caliber with mono bullets. I used the .223 TMK because that is what this thread is about but I have other examples of .243/6.5 creed exhibiting more damage than 30/06/300WM. There's a video on YouTube where a guy compares ballistic gelatin from a .50bmg to a 6creed. 6 creed had a significantly larger wound. How you ask....... Because he used a rapidly expanding bullet in the creed and a fmj in the bmg.......Bullets matter more than head stamps.

I agree whole heartedly with your premise... just look at my other posts... yes, bullet construction matters more than headstamps...

however all I was getting at is that this other guys post did not say he was comparing small caliber expanding bullets to larger caliber monos... maybe that is exactly what he WAS observing... as you put it "Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge."

 

[packgoatguy]

Thank you for the thought but the bolt face is different.

Randy

Gunsmith I talked to last week about this subject, said it's no problem modifying those bolt faces. He was referring to going up in size, not down... so I don't know if there is an issue there.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Gunsmith I talked to last week about this subject, said it's no problem modifying those bolt faces. He was referring to going up in size, not down... so I don't know if there is an issue there.

He is correct that enlarging a bolt face will work but going down is not possible.
One of these days, one will pop up.

Randy

 

[packgoatguy]

He is correct that enlarging a bolt face will work but going down is not possible.
One of these days, one will pop up.

Randy

Good to know. Good luck in your search.

 

[Shraggs]

"A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection."

This is what is incorrect. His whole post/argument/view is based on that and as such is invalid because IT IS NOT TRUE. Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge. A smaller caliber with a rapidly expanding bullet will exhibit larger wounds than a larger caliber with mono bullets. I used the .223 TMK because that is what this thread is about but I have other examples of .243/6.5 creed exhibiting more damage than 30/06/300WM. There's a video on YouTube where a guy compares ballistic gelatin from a .50bmg to a 6creed. 6 creed had a significantly larger wound. How you ask....... Because he used a rapidly expanding bullet in the creed and a fmj in the bmg.......Bullets matter more than head stamps.

Good point, and if the handful of guys at this late stage want pot stir with dismissive opinion without reading or facts they would have read comments from members who have killed with 300 wm and tmk at mid ranges and their details…

 

[packgoatguy]

This^^^^^. I've shot more rounds through my .223 in the last month in meaningful practice than I put through my .30-06 in the last 6 months. The improvement in my shooting has been eye opening and I'm only getting started. Quit bickering and go shooting instead☺

Yeah, I had to take a break from this thread for a bit this evening... I wanted to see what reading my labradar would give me at 10 degrees F with factory 73elds... 2.3mils elevation adjustment on the scope was on the money! Put three rounds into a 3 inch disc at my 400 yard target behind my house. 2695, 2705, 2710fps with the factory 1/8 t3 barrel. I dare those coyotes to come by again tomorrow!

 

[Moose83]

Yeah, I had to take a break from this thread for a bit this evening... I wanted to see what reading my labradar would give me at 10 degrees F with factory 73elds... 2.3mils elevation adjustment on the scope was on the money! Put three rounds into a 3 inch disc at my 400 yard target behind my house. 2695, 2705, 2710fps with the factory 1/8 t3 barrel. I dare those coyotes to come by again tomorrow!

Lol. Everything is always better after some trigger time.... I wish I could shoot out my back door!

 

[packgoatguy]

Lol. Everything is always better after some trigger time.... I wish I could shoot out my back door!

Yeah, I never realized what I had until just an hour ago... when pnwgator taught me that I should be out there training my kids to be riflemen... mind blown!

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I agree whole heartedly with your premise... just look at my other posts... yes, bullet construction matters more than headstamps...

however all I was getting at is that this other guys post did not say he was comparing small caliber expanding bullets to larger caliber monos... maybe that is exactly what he WAS observing... as you put it "Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge."

Do you think you'd be able to tell the difference in a heart hit with a 77 grain 223 TMK and a 130 grain 6.5 TMK at the same velocity?

 

[clperry]

No didnt read all 159 pages . sorry. but kind of makes my point.

No. It makes his.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ezwy]

He is correct that enlarging a bolt face will work but going down is not possible.
One of these days, one will pop up.

Randy

just looking for a tikka 223?

 

[packgoatguy]

Do you think you'd be able to tell the difference in a heart hit with a 77 grain 223 TMK and a 130 grain 6.5 TMK at the same velocity?

Would be interesting to see wouldn't it. Side by side gel tests of 69tmk, 77tmk, 130tmk, 168tmk, 195tmk. Maybe a test of each at various impact velocities, scale up from 1500fps to 3000fps or something like that.

 

[Castle Rock]

That would be pointless, none will be deaderer than any of the others