.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[11Justin22]

Why not through the shoulder with Fusions or Gold Dots (same bullet)?

Because they bounce off......

On a more serious note what is a good distance/speed for a fusion to work adequately? I have shot more deer with a fusion then anything else but those are all under 150 yards and a different caliber.

 

[cod0396]

You're being a bit dramatic. Use the search function. Search just "this thread" for the word "fusion". It'll provide a list of every time it was mentioned. It'll greatly narrow it down for you.

Wow, that is an incredibly useful feature to navigate a thread of this size. Had no idea that was even a thing.

 

[cod0396]

Because they bounce off......

On a more serious note what is a good distance/speed for a fusion to work adequately? I have shot more deer with a fusion then anything else but those are all under 150 yards and a different caliber.

I'm not sure if this applies to other calibers, but I'm almost certain that .223 fusions expand down to 1700ish fps. Similar to the TMK, minus the fragmentation to aid in wounding. My personal limit for a bonded bullet (aside from something like an ABLR) is 2000fps impact, but form may have a different opinion.

 

[Formidilosus]

Because they bounce off......

On a more serious note what is a good distance/speed for a fusion to work adequately? I have shot more deer with a fusion then anything else but those are all under 150 yards and a different caliber.

1,800fps impact. I’ve killed with them past 400 yards from 10.5” barrels.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Why not through the shoulder with Fusions or Gold Dots (same bullet)?

Shot a few where I only had a quartering towards shot and every one of them gimped off with only 3 legs working never to be seen again. The 70gr Barnes smoked right through and exited with the same shot. My best guess is they were hitting the shoulder blade and turning but I never found one to confirm. Behind the shoulder, through the chest, or neck they dropped or didn’t go far. These were central VA deer too which aren’t big animals.

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

1,800fps impact. I’ve killed with them past 400 yards from 10.5” barrels.

What group size do you expect out of a 10.5 at 100? If everyone started shooting everything with 10.5s and 223s the whole world would flop.

 

[Formidilosus]

Shot a few where I only had a quartering towards shot and every one of them gimped off with only 3 legs working never to be seen again. The 70gr Barnes smoked right through and exited with the same shot. My best guess is they were hitting the shoulder blade and turning but I never found one to confirm. Behind the shoulder, through the chest, or neck they dropped or didn’t go far. These were central VA deer too which aren’t big animals.

Have killed a lot quartering and going through the “shoulders”, no issues.

 

[Formidilosus]

What group size do you expect out of a 10.5 at 100? If everyone started shooting everything with 10.5s and 223s the whole world would flop.

1.5 to 2’ish MOA.

 

[eric1115]

So, certainly not a failure story, but more of a "I need to manage my expectations" story...

This past weekend my daughter shot a medium sized mulie doe, impact MV around 2150. Got fragmentation and exit, entered 2-3" behind the crease of the shoulder and exited a couple inches in front of the diaphragm. Back half of one lung was destroyed, and moderate damage (probably a third) to the other. She ran probably 200-250 yards with very sparse blood trail that went away completely, and we only found her after several hours of grid search since she ran over a couple of finger ridges out of sight. I'm very glad I was able to see bullet impact and see the exit wound as she went over the ridge, as she showed very little sign of having been hit as she ran.

In the end, the bullet performed fine, did substantial damage, and I am sure if the shot was 2" further forward I would be singing the chorus of the "Praise be to the TMK and its father Sierra" song but the feeling in the gut when you think your 10 year old little girl may not recover her first deer is not a good one.

I don't think I'm claiming that another bullet or caliber would have done better in this specific instance, but I can't help but think I've shot deer and seen them shot in similar spots with various 30 cal interlocks, ELDs, 7mm ballistic tips, Bergers, etc and they have seemed to go down faster and leak a lot more blood with a 120-180 grain bullet that expands/fragments well. Every shot is different though, and maybe this was a 1 out of 10 that would have done this regardless of bullet, and this bullet would have produced similar results on all those others I've seen.

 

[Formidilosus]

So, certainly not a failure story, but more of a "I need to manage my expectations" story...

This past weekend my daughter shot a medium sized mulie doe, impact MV around 2150. Got fragmentation and exit, entered 2-3" behind the crease of the shoulder and exited a couple inches in front of the diaphragm. Back half of one lung was destroyed, and moderate damage (probably a third) to the other. She ran probably 200-250 yards with very sparse blood trail that went away completely, and we only found her after several hours of grid search since she ran over a couple of finger ridges out of sight. I'm very glad I was able to see bullet impact and see the exit wound as she went over the ridge, as she showed very little sign of having been hit as she ran.

In the end, the bullet performed fine, did substantial damage, and I am sure if the shot was 2" further forward I would be singing the chorus of the "Praise be to the TMK and its father Sierra" song but the feeling in the gut when you think your 10 year old little girl may not recover her first deer is not a good one.

I don't think I'm claiming that another bullet or caliber would have done better in this specific instance, but I can't help but think I've shot deer and seen them shot in similar spots with various 30 cal interlocks, ELDs, 7mm ballistic tips, Bergers, etc and they have seemed to go down faster and leak a lot more blood with a 120-180 grain bullet that expands/fragments well. Every shot is different though, and maybe this was a 1 out of 10 that would have done this regardless of bullet, and this bullet would have produced similar results on all those others I've seen.

How many deer/antelope/elk have you killed, followed up on, and really studied what happened with the shot and afterwards?

 

[eric1115]

How many deer/antelope/elk have you killed, followed up on, and really studied what happened with the shot and afterwards?

Not nearly enough to call any of it "data," it's certainly more anecdotal. Probably 40 deer, and half dozen each of elk and antelope. Been with other guys on probably another 40 deer and 10-15 of the others at least. call it 100-150 big game animals?

I have only recently really started paying closer attention to the way terminal performance gets delivered to an animal. Most of what I've killed or seen killed over the years has been midsize rifle cartridges like a .308 with 165 Interlocks, .270/.260/7mm-08 shooting 120-140 class ballistic tip or sometimes accubonds. Other than a few dozen deer killed with 12ga slugs, nothing with more horsepower than a 7mm RM.

I am glad to have been shooting a TMK for this vs a hard bonded or mono, as I would imagine they would have produced a much narrower wound channel/hole through the back part of the lungs and been a longer run/slower death.

I'll for sure say that identical performance can feel different in different terrain. An animal that runs 200 yards in open country where you can watch them the whole way until they tip over is a much different feeling than one that runs out of sight over the finger ridge then sidehills through the timber for 150 yards. I've spent most of my western hunting time in pretty open country, so that exact same bullet performance would be easily forgettable on a lot of animals.

I guess at the end of the day, if I had opened up this deer after shooting it with a larger bullet, the damage would have looked appropriate to me. The bullet doesn't know it's my daughter's first deer or that there is a ridge right there with timber on the other side. I think the main thing I'm hoping to share here is that the deer's actions surprised me given what I found when I field dressed her. I'd welcome your input on whether that is what you would expect to see in that scenario.

 

[eric1115]

Also, I think at this point I'm still firmly believing that 77 TMK's benefits far outweighs its drawbacks.

My daughter at 10 now is well ahead of where her older brother was at this age.

My son is 13 now, and a good shot but at 10 even shooting reduced loads with 120 grainers out of his 7mm-08 I let him shoot it too much vs .223 and rimfire. I think a kid should shoot 20 dry fire reps, 10 rounds of rimfire and 5 rounds of .223 for every one round of whatever Creedmoor, 7mm-08, or other medium cartridge if that is what they are going to shoot. It was my mistake that led to him developing some bad habits we needed to train out.

My daughter is 100% more confident and comfortable getting behind the .223 than he was getting behind his 7mm at this age, and she doesn't have nearly the bad habits he had.

Even if that 7mm had slightly produced a slightly faster kill delivered to that same spot (which it may not have), the possibility of having a more marginal bullet placement due to more recoil, flinch, and fear far outweighs that possible benefit in my estimation.

 

[Lawnboi]

Also, I think at this point I'm still firmly believing that 77 TMK's benefits far outweighs its drawbacks.

My daughter at 10 now is well ahead of where her older brother was at this age.

My son is 13 now, and a good shot but at 10 even shooting reduced loads with 120 grainers out of his 7mm-08 I let him shoot it too much vs .223 and rimfire. I think a kid should shoot 20 dry fire reps, 10 rounds of rimfire and 5 rounds of .223 for every one round of whatever Creedmoor, 7mm-08, or other medium cartridge if that is what they are going to shoot. It was my mistake that led to him developing some bad habits we needed to train out.

My daughter is 100% more confident and comfortable getting behind the .223 than he was getting behind his 7mm at this age, and she doesn't have nearly the bad habits he had.

Even if that 7mm had slightly produced a slightly faster kill delivered to that same spot (which it may not have), the possibility of having a more marginal bullet placement due to more recoil, flinch, and fear far outweighs that possible benefit in my estimation.

Agreed! Not only with kids. Plenty of grown men have fundamental shooting problems from too much powder.

 

[Formidilosus]

Not nearly enough to call any of it "data," it's certainly more anecdotal. Probably 40 deer, and half dozen each of elk and antelope. Been with other guys on probably another 40 deer and 10-15 of the others at least. call it 100-150 big game animals?

Thank you.

I'd welcome your input on whether that is what you would expect to see in that scenario.

The reason I asked is due to trends. It’s seems regardless of what caliber/cartridge, about 1/50 to 1/100 has an animal doing weird things. That’s with 338 and 300 mags, standard cartridges, etc. not saying this is you, but I think most people that have killed 50-100 game animals has seen animals that react unexpectedly, but when they do so with obviously “big” guns, it’s just chalked up to “animals are tough”. When someone is using a cartridge smaller than what they are really comfortable with, then those “tough animals” become- “cartridge too small”.

That is separated from bullets doing weird things. The “harder” a bullet is, the more often weird things tend to happen.

 

[eric1115]

Thank you.




The reason I asked is due to trends. It’s seems regardless of what caliber/cartridge, about 1/50 to 1/100 has an animal doing weird things. That’s with 338 and 300 mags, standard cartridges, etc. not saying this is you, but I think most people that have killed 50-100 game animals has seen animals that react unexpectedly, but when they do so with obviously “big” guns, it’s just chalked up to “animals are tough”. When someone is using a cartridge smaller than what they are really comfortable with, then those “tough animals” become- “cartridge too small”.

That is separated from bullets doing weird things. The “harder” a bullet is, the more often weird things tend to happen.

I agree with this, and think this was a perfect storm situation to prompt an emotionally driven evaluation. Stakes were as high as any big buck could be for me, terrain/topography/time of day situation made for a much higher level of uncertainty on the search after the shot, and it all came on the heels of a great stalk and a good (but not perfect) shot after she had put in good work all year to be confident and capable at that distance. First deer that was my responsibility with that bullet, and it was the 1 in 50 weirdo. It just felt like kind of a letdown after the overwhelming positive reports from that setup. My logical brain is completely satisfied with the tissue damage I found inside, but my emotional self was having some unkind thoughts toward that bullet as I watched my girl fighting back tears thinking she'd wounded a deer and we might not find it.

 

[Sadler]

Creedmoor sports has TMKs in stock

 

[SquatchHunter]

Midway has 77g tmk factory seconds
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021193973?pid=516595

I have a few boxes of 69g tmk that I need to build a load for so I might go that route this year.

Saw this thread pop up on arfcom last weekend. Really dug through this and the .264 thread. Great stuff. I hunted with the 75g (?) tsx a few years back but no luck the few times I took it out.

 

[Afhunter1]

Does the cannelure change wounding performance?

 

[Formidilosus]

Does the cannelure change wounding performance?

No. Not measurably.

 

[Rooggvc]

If we are having TMK seconds hit the market right now, is it safe to assume more TMK's are on the way? Just wondering if I need to jump on some seconds.