.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Hey everyone! Just finished all 130 pages. This is my first post in any forum of any kind; I’ve been a lurker (if I got that right) for over 15yrs.

Anyway I felt I had to respond for a couple of reasons. First, this forum has by FAR been the most helpful to me while I’ve been learning backcountry hunting over the last two years. Second, because this discussion finally squared the logical inconsistencies I’ve not been able to previously untangle. The concepts and empirical evidence discussed are invaluable. I’ve delved somewhat into terminal ballistics, read some of Martin Fackler’s work, read everything I could from Jack O’Connor & Chuck Hawks as well as others over the years…and still missed the basic concept. When it came time to buy a rifle I’d try to get the lowest-recoiling chambering that would be well within the realm of ‘acceptable’ for the task. I knew wounding was a function of the bullet, I knew about temporary and permanent stretch cavities, and I knew that a bullet which expands and damages the most tissue vital to life will produce a kill…but still somehow picked cartridges based upon anecdotal evidence and conventional wisdom.

I’ve been hunting for a little over 15yrs now and have moved from a 7WSM to the 30-06 then on to a 308, then a 7mm-08. At that level of recoil I could spot my shots often. I’ve primarily hunted deer and hogs here in Texas. So, the last three years I’ve even moved down to a 139 SST at 2500fps bc it works so well. I’m the guy who’s told that I need to shoot man guns by his friends, even though I have more one-shot kills than any of them! Which is fine, to each his own.

Now that I’m hunting in the mountains, earlier this year I set up another 7mmRM for an eventual elk hunt, just to have it. But had I ever shot an elk? Nope. And still I got the Rem Mag to shoot heavier bullets faster bc elk are “so tough”. LOL. And yes, I practice with that rifle just about as much as many of you can guess. I’ve had it all year and it has less than 100 rounds on the barrel.

So you guys have me curious about a couple of things:

1) Since CO & WY are a couple of mainstays for me (I hope), I’m leaning towards a Tikka T3X in 243 Win with the 95gr TMK as my one-and-done for most situations. It’ll kick less than my reduced recoil 7mm-08 load and be good for as far as I’ll ever shoot (I can keep all shots with my 7-08 tight at 450yds from field positions and with that rifle I do practice alot). If anyone is curious, I’ll add to the body of evidence with the 243. Or in a separate thread, however that needs to go.

2) In the interim, and this is the big one due to component availability, you guys have me thinking that my 7mm-08 with either the 139gr Hornady SST or BTSP could take an elk easily due to better expansion of those bullets. True/False?

Again, a big heartfelt THANK YOU to everyone who has pitched in and provided so much info on this thread! Rokslide is awesome.

Welcome to the forum. In terms of quality discussion with a minimum of noise, it's probably the best on the net. You can't go wrong with the Tikka in 243. I wish they'd make it in a 6 Creed. I could be compelled to buy a Christensen Arms Mesa FFT in 6 Creed. Both of my Mesas are pleasantly accurate.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

The 69 Grain TMK doesn't get much attention here. Have any of you used it on deer? My Savage Lightweight Hunter 223 seems like it pretty well in initial testing with 25.4 grains of CFE223.

 

[BCsteve]

You guys can’t even have pistols, why are they sending something so deadly up there now

Surprised 77tmk isn’t on the list

Our government hasn't read this thread yet, they think the .223 is only good for gophers so it can't be that dangerous.

 

[BCsteve]

Lol... yup. Seeing as how I'm in Canada too I was wondering as to the establishment that might have some more of them...

Nowhere specifically. The last two were fron Nechako Outdoors. I have the "notify me when in stock" at a few different places. You just have to be quick!

 

[woods89]

Couple data points on the 69 gr TMK.View attachment 474114
Entry
View attachment 474115
Exit
View attachment 474117
Shot was 15 yds, muzzle velocity of 2885. Chest cavity was wrecked, diaphragm was breached. She went 80 yds or so, but most of that was sort of crashing down a steep slope.

And this guy
View attachment 474119View attachment 474122
This shot was 70 yds or so. Deer was slightly quartering away. It looked like a couple fragments may have exited at the point of the shoulder, but no real exit hole. Chest cavity was wrecked. He went 70-80 yds.

@Fartrell Cluggins

 

[Moose83]

Nowhere specifically. The last two were fron Nechako Outdoors. I have the "notify me when in stock" at a few different places. You just have to be quick!

Cool... thanks! I think I actually got the last box Nechako had in stock

 

[280Ackley]

6.5 Grendel- 107gr or 130gr TMK, or 123gr Hornady ELD-M.

300BO- don’t would be my suggestion. However, 125gr TMK or Nosler Ballistic Tip.

What do you think about the 100gr ELD-M in the Grendel?

 

[BryanL]

This is seriously one of the best threads I have read on any forum. The only other one that is close is the one on AFCOM by the Battlefield Las Vegas owner (Ron) about what works and doesn’t work under their facility conditions (full auto fire and close to 30k rounds in each AR per month).

For those with a tikka, any advantage to a Stainless vs Blued? I have a blued and it showed signs of some spot surface rust almost immediately in this Oregon coast range hunting season. Going to try to track down a stainless option if I can but curious if anyone has seen any more able differences.

 

[Pharmseller]

There are a lot of very dead elk that were shot with the 7-08. If you are good with it to 450 yards and practice with it more than the others, my suggestion would be to keep using it. I have killed a pile of animals with the 139 grain SSTs, however none of them were elk. That being said, I can confidently say that if I was in the woods with my 7-08 and 139 grain SSTs I would not hesitate to shoot an elk.

I’ve killed elk with a 7mm-08, and seen elk get killed with a 7mm-08. It’s my primary shootin’ iron.




P

 

[Steve300xcw]

For those with a tikka, any advantage to a Stainless vs Blued? I have a blued and it showed signs of some spot surface rust almost immediately in this Oregon coast range hunting season. Going to try to track down a stainless option if I can but curious if anyone has seen any more able differences.

Wouldnt sway me one way or the other? My main rifle has some freckling from being put away wet. I could care less

 

[HandgunHTR]

For those with a tikka, any advantage to a Stainless vs Blued? I have a blued and it showed signs of some spot surface rust almost immediately in this Oregon coast range hunting season. Going to try to track down a stainless option if I can but curious if anyone has seen any more able differences.

I don’t really think there is an advantage if you already have a blued version. If you are concerned, spend the $150 and have the one you own cerakoted.

Unless, of course, you just want to buy another gun.

 

[Formidilosus]

Elk, all with 223/77gr TMK-


633 yards, 1,515fps impact, quartering away in the neck-




430 yards, quartering, lung, liver, stomach and caught in exit side, 1,816fps impact-


Same elk, moved to 402 yards, raking shot, exit though femur and hindquarter, 1,863fps impact-




555 yards, qaurtering, rib, liver, lung, heart, 1,760fps impact-

Entrance-



Caught in heart-

 

[BLJ]

Caught in heart-
View attachment 488013

For the win. That is awesome.

 

[wayno945]

That's awesome. What platform rifle are you using? AR or bolt?

 

[wyo]

Elk, all with 223/77gr TMK-


633 yards, 1,515fps impact, quartering away in the neck-
View attachment 488008



430 yards, quartering, lung, liver, stomach and caught in exit side, 1,816fps impact-
View attachment 488009

Same elk, moved to 402 yards, raking shot, exit though femur and hindquarter, 1,863fps impact-
View attachment 488010



555 yards, qaurtering, rib, liver, lung, heart, 1,760fps impact-

Entrance-
View attachment 488012


Caught in heart-
View attachment 488013

Those are some pokes with that little varmint caliber!
Great autopsy photos, interesting to see the amount of fragmentation/deformation at such low impact velocities. I certainly appreciate this thread and its contribution to science. In fact, I like it a whole bunch.

 

[Formidilosus]

That's awesome. What platform rifle are you using? AR or bolt?

Both.

Those are some pokes with that little varmint caliber!
Great autopsy photos, interesting to see the amount of fragmentation/deformation at such low impact velocities. I certainly appreciate this thread and its contribution to science. In fact, I like it a whole bunch.

It’s almost like you can design a bullet to kill well for any caliber…

 

[N2TRKYS]

Any word on where to purchase these bullets(TMKs)?

 

[KClark]

It’s almost like you can design a bullet to kill well for any caliber…

May be if there was a reason to design a bullet specifically for damage to flesh and bone, it would only need a cannelure to be the perfect......oh wait!

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Does anyone have any experience using the Nosler RDF 70 or 77gr in game?

 

[Jake Leibke]

So…. Very informative thread…. I’m only on page 100 of 132.

I’ve seen it mentioned a few times but only a mention. Has anyone had experience with MidwayUSA seconds bullets?