.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

Hey everyone! Just finished all 130 pages. This is my first post in any forum of any kind; I’ve been a lurker (if I got that right) for over 15yrs.

Anyway I felt I had to respond for a couple of reasons. First, this forum has by FAR been the most helpful to me while I’ve been learning backcountry hunting over the last two years. Second, because this discussion finally squared the logical inconsistencies I’ve not been able to previously untangle. The concepts and empirical evidence discussed are invaluable. I’ve delved somewhat into terminal ballistics, read some of Martin Fackler’s work, read everything I could from Jack O’Connor & Chuck Hawks as well as others over the years…and still missed the basic concept. When it came time to buy a rifle I’d try to get the lowest-recoiling chambering that would be well within the realm of ‘acceptable’ for the task. I knew wounding was a function of the bullet, I knew about temporary and permanent stretch cavities, and I knew that a bullet which expands and damages the most tissue vital to life will produce a kill…but still somehow picked cartridges based upon anecdotal evidence and conventional wisdom.

I’ve been hunting for a little over 15yrs now and have moved from a 7WSM to the 30-06 then on to a 308, then a 7mm-08. At that level of recoil I could spot my shots often. I’ve primarily hunted deer and hogs here in Texas. So, the last three years I’ve even moved down to a 139 SST at 2500fps bc it works so well. I’m the guy who’s told that I need to shoot man guns by his friends, even though I have more one-shot kills than any of them! Which is fine, to each his own.

Now that I’m hunting in the mountains, earlier this year I set up another 7mmRM for an eventual elk hunt, just to have it. But had I ever shot an elk? Nope. And still I got the Rem Mag to shoot heavier bullets faster bc elk are “so tough”. LOL. And yes, I practice with that rifle just about as much as many of you can guess. I’ve had it all year and it has less than 100 rounds on the barrel.

So you guys have me curious about a couple of things:

1) Since CO & WY are a couple of mainstays for me (I hope), I’m leaning towards a Tikka T3X in 243 Win with the 95gr TMK as my one-and-done for most situations. It’ll kick less than my reduced recoil 7mm-08 load and be good for as far as I’ll ever shoot (I can keep all shots with my 7-08 tight at 450yds from field positions and with that rifle I do practice alot). If anyone is curious, I’ll add to the body of evidence with the 243. Or in a separate thread, however that needs to go.

2) In the interim, and this is the big one due to component availability, you guys have me thinking that my 7mm-08 with either the 139gr Hornady SST or BTSP could take an elk easily due to better expansion of those bullets. True/False?

Again, a big heartfelt THANK YOU to everyone who has pitched in and provided so much info on this thread! Rokslide is awesome.
 
Antares said:
Well, I did what I threatened to do back in post #2,112; just finished putting together a "Rockslide Special."

Karl at Kampfeld Customs cut the barrel to 18" and threaded it. Check out the close-ups of his work. I can't believe how tidy the blending is from the barrel to the adapter (1/2-28 to 5/8-24). He such a good guy to work with. I couldn't be happier.

The pics show the rifle mocked up/dry fit. I still need to install a 1/2" LOP spacers, attach the comb risers, then degrease, clean, and torque everything. Looking forward to getting it zeroed and shooting some drills. I got 7 cases of Hornady Frontier 68gr BTHP Match to feed this rifle, so hopefully it shoots them halfway well.
Click to expand...
What do you think of the Victor Company cheek rest? It looks clean, and to be a simpler solution than the Mountain Tactical cheek rest.
 
Hurley88 said:
Hey everyone! Just finished all 130 pages. This is my first post in any forum of any kind; I’ve been a lurker (if I got that right) for over 15yrs.

Anyway I felt I had to respond for a couple of reasons. First, this forum has by FAR been the most helpful to me while I’ve been learning backcountry hunting over the last two years. Second, because this discussion finally squared the logical inconsistencies I’ve not been able to previously untangle. The concepts and empirical evidence discussed are invaluable. I’ve delved somewhat into terminal ballistics, read some of Martin Fackler’s work, read everything I could from Jack O’Connor & Chuck Hawks as well as others over the years…and still missed the basic concept. When it came time to buy a rifle I’d try to get the lowest-recoiling chambering that would be well within the realm of ‘acceptable’ for the task. I knew wounding was a function of the bullet, I knew about temporary and permanent stretch cavities, and I knew that a bullet which expands and damages the most tissue vital to life will produce a kill…but still somehow picked cartridges based upon anecdotal evidence and conventional wisdom.

I’ve been hunting for a little over 15yrs now and have moved from a 7WSM to the 30-06 then on to a 308, then a 7mm-08. At that level of recoil I could spot my shots often. I’ve primarily hunted deer and hogs here in Texas. So, the last three years I’ve even moved down to a 139 SST at 2500fps bc it works so well. I’m the guy who’s told that I need to shoot man guns by his friends, even though I have more one-shot kills than any of them! Which is fine, to each his own.

Now that I’m hunting in the mountains, earlier this year I set up another 7mmRM for an eventual elk hunt, just to have it. But had I ever shot an elk? Nope. And still I got the Rem Mag to shoot heavier bullets faster bc elk are “so tough”. LOL. And yes, I practice with that rifle just about as much as many of you can guess. I’ve had it all year and it has less than 100 rounds on the barrel.

So you guys have me curious about a couple of things:

1) Since CO & WY are a couple of mainstays for me (I hope), I’m leaning towards a Tikka T3X in 243 Win with the 95gr TMK as my one-and-done for most situations. It’ll kick less than my reduced recoil 7mm-08 load and be good for as far as I’ll ever shoot (I can keep all shots with my 7-08 tight at 450yds from field positions and with that rifle I do practice alot). If anyone is curious, I’ll add to the body of evidence with the 243. Or in a separate thread, however that needs to go.

2) In the interim, and this is the big one due to component availability, you guys have me thinking that my 7mm-08 with either the 139gr Hornady SST or BTSP could take an elk easily due to better expansion of those bullets. True/False?

Again, a big heartfelt THANK YOU to everyone who has pitched in and provided so much info on this thread! Rokslide is awesome.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of very dead elk that were shot with the 7-08. If you are good with it to 450 yards and practice with it more than the others, my suggestion would be to keep using it. I have killed a pile of animals with the 139 grain SSTs, however none of them were elk. That being said, I can confidently say that if I was in the woods with my 7-08 and 139 grain SSTs I would not hesitate to shoot an elk.
 
Sadler said:
What kind of velocities are you getting and what’s the barrel length?
Click to expand...

T3x w/ uncut (22" I think) barrel. 77gr SMK. Loaded w/ a chargemaster lite.

O5OlRdPh.jpg


vUcKICSh.png


Barrel cut to 18.5" at 55 degrees.
22gr - 2296
22.5gr - 2408
23 & 23.5 - error
24 gr - 2630
24.5gr - 2683
25gr - 2774
25.5gr - 2816
 
Last edited:
HandgunHTR said:
There are a lot of very dead elk that were shot with the 7-08. If you are good with it to 450 yards and practice with it more than the others, my suggestion would be to keep using it. I have killed a pile of animals with the 139 grain SSTs, however none of them were elk. That being said, I can confidently say that if I was in the woods with my 7-08 and 139 grain SSTs I would not hesitate to shoot an elk.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the feedback! I slept on it and realized my question had already been answered already. If I’m worried, I’ll research the TMK and proper ballistics tests that have been done with it, then see if my projectile behaves in a similar fashion in ballistics tests. If so, I’ll just go use it and stick with it. Still gonna do the 243 or 223 setup bc…well I’ve never just left anything well enough alone so why not? I’ll take less recoil & more accuracy any day.

Again, thanks to everyone here who helped set my head right, this has been an awesome thread.
 
Lonewolf72 said:
What do you think of the Victor Company cheek rest? It looks clean, and to be a simpler solution than the Mountain Tactical cheek rest.
Click to expand...

I have one on my CZ 457 that works well. I think it's a good pretty tidy solution. Pics in link below.

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/the-unofficial-cz-452-455-457-thread.247217/

Not sure how it's going to work on the factory Tikka stock. I just set it in place for the picture, I haven't attached it yet. It's a little wider than the stock, so I'll need to add a little material to each side to keep it snug, probably needs to be shimmed 1/16" on each side, something like that. Not sure how the secure the attachment will be given that the Tikka stock is hollow (the CZ stock is wood laminate), but I bet it'll be ok. Will just need to be careful not to over tighten the screws, might run them in with a little glue to secure them. I'll report back after I've done it.
 
Moose83 said:
Any body using powders other than 8208, 4895, Varget, or Tac? Looking for other options based on availability locally up here. IMR or Hogdon is typically the most common locally. Thanks.
Click to expand...
CFE 223 may be a good choice for you. Some complain about temp sensitivity while others say it's no issue. It gives very good velocity with the heavies. It has given me good accuracy. If you are shooting sub 70 grain bullets, W748 is accurate in just about every load that I have tried. It gives up a good bit of velocity with the heavies.
 
Hurley88 said:
Hey everyone! Just finished all 130 pages. This is my first post in any forum of any kind; I’ve been a lurker (if I got that right) for over 15yrs.

Anyway I felt I had to respond for a couple of reasons. First, this forum has by FAR been the most helpful to me while I’ve been learning backcountry hunting over the last two years. Second, because this discussion finally squared the logical inconsistencies I’ve not been able to previously untangle. The concepts and empirical evidence discussed are invaluable. I’ve delved somewhat into terminal ballistics, read some of Martin Fackler’s work, read everything I could from Jack O’Connor & Chuck Hawks as well as others over the years…and still missed the basic concept. When it came time to buy a rifle I’d try to get the lowest-recoiling chambering that would be well within the realm of ‘acceptable’ for the task. I knew wounding was a function of the bullet, I knew about temporary and permanent stretch cavities, and I knew that a bullet which expands and damages the most tissue vital to life will produce a kill…but still somehow picked cartridges based upon anecdotal evidence and conventional wisdom.

I’ve been hunting for a little over 15yrs now and have moved from a 7WSM to the 30-06 then on to a 308, then a 7mm-08. At that level of recoil I could spot my shots often. I’ve primarily hunted deer and hogs here in Texas. So, the last three years I’ve even moved down to a 139 SST at 2500fps bc it works so well. I’m the guy who’s told that I need to shoot man guns by his friends, even though I have more one-shot kills than any of them! Which is fine, to each his own.

Now that I’m hunting in the mountains, earlier this year I set up another 7mmRM for an eventual elk hunt, just to have it. But had I ever shot an elk? Nope. And still I got the Rem Mag to shoot heavier bullets faster bc elk are “so tough”. LOL. And yes, I practice with that rifle just about as much as many of you can guess. I’ve had it all year and it has less than 100 rounds on the barrel.

So you guys have me curious about a couple of things:

1) Since CO & WY are a couple of mainstays for me (I hope), I’m leaning towards a Tikka T3X in 243 Win with the 95gr TMK as my one-and-done for most situations. It’ll kick less than my reduced recoil 7mm-08 load and be good for as far as I’ll ever shoot (I can keep all shots with my 7-08 tight at 450yds from field positions and with that rifle I do practice alot). If anyone is curious, I’ll add to the body of evidence with the 243. Or in a separate thread, however that needs to go.

2) In the interim, and this is the big one due to component availability, you guys have me thinking that my 7mm-08 with either the 139gr Hornady SST or BTSP could take an elk easily due to better expansion of those bullets. True/False?

Again, a big heartfelt THANK YOU to everyone who has pitched in and provided so much info on this thread! Rokslide is awesome.
Click to expand...
Welcome to the forum. In terms of quality discussion with a minimum of noise, it's probably the best on the net. You can't go wrong with the Tikka in 243. I wish they'd make it in a 6 Creed. I could be compelled to buy a Christensen Arms Mesa FFT in 6 Creed. Both of my Mesas are pleasantly accurate.
 
The 69 Grain TMK doesn't get much attention here. Have any of you used it on deer? My Savage Lightweight Hunter 223 seems like it pretty well in initial testing with 25.4 grains of CFE223.



 
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