.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Benjblt]

No. You listened to conventional wisdom with regards to small calibers, and while I’m sure I’ve not killed as many animals as most, between hunting and depredation I have killed and seen killed hundreds of deer.... and a few more than that. Around 40 deer with Barnes it was clear that they create less damage, and the animals run farther after being shot. I’m only personally at around 100 deer with 77gr TMK’s and the farther animal has traveled less than 30 feet sliding downhill.



This is why I constantly go against the grain with “shoot a Barnes!”

Barnes TSX’s and other monos create relatively narrow wound channels and consequently kill slower. The wound from a 62gr TSX really isn’t a whole lot different than from a mechanical broadhead. 77gr TMK’s, 75gr SPGD, 75gr AMAX/ELD-M, etc. create horrific wounds, and kill very quickly.

Based on all the pictures they created horrificly bloodshot animals as well.

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[The Guide]

Based on all the pictures they created horrificly bloodshot animals as well.

In comparison to what? I've seen similar and worse from basic factory hunting ammunition. Any expanding bullets will give some type of bloodshot with larger calibers being worse at short range.

Jay

 

[Benjblt]

In comparison to kills that aren't bloodshot. My main point is, I don't like bloodshot meat. I've certainly had it and that's what you get with fast bullets that fall apart like this. But they certainly kill.

I've had good luck with ballistic tips but the last two years I've had some really shot up animals, partially my fault. It makes me want to go back to a mono metal or a bonded bullet. I hate throwing away meat and the thought of hundreds of tiny pieces of lead in my meat.

The meat in the pictures I'm commenting on look worse than my recent experiences with regard to blood shot. So I guess I'm comparing to my experiences.



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[The Guide]

High velocity impact with expanding bullets will cause bloodshot damage even with monometal and bonded bullets. The extent of it depends on the impact velocity and the shot placement. Sometimes bone fragmentation is worse than the bullets!

Jay

 

[Formidilosus]

Based on all the pictures they created horrificly bloodshot animals as well.

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I’m not sure what your point is provided if you have read the entire thread?

If a 223 is already causing more damage than you want, then going to a larger caliber is going backwards. That’s the point of this whole thread- 22cals are already “more” than needed and way more than most people want if bullets are optimized. If you want less meat damage, shoot different bullets. Increasing caliber, weight, recoil, and cost; while decreasing shootability- just to yank spark plugs out to damage less meat doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

 

[jadkins223]

This is my newest 77 TMK launcher. It should be a hammer for hogs and deer in the brush. Video if y’all wanna see.

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[Drenalin]

This whole thread has me thinking hard about a 10.5” suppressed AR.

 

[fwafwow]

This whole thread has me thinking hard about a 10.5” suppressed AR.

Do it!

 

[Drenalin]

Do it!

I know…but I haven’t even bought a Tikka yet!

 

[Sandstrom]

I cut my 223 tikka to 18. With 4 inches cut off I lost 75 fps. It went from 2888 fps to 2813 with 75 grn Hornady frontier. At 18 inches with black hills 77TMK I am getting 2738 fps.
Ryan

 

[justinspicher]

This whole thread has me thinking hard about a 10.5” suppressed AR.

What’s the purpose? Not that you have to have one, just curious.

 

[Benjblt]

I’m not sure what your point is provided if you have read the entire thread?

If a 223 is already causing more damage than you want, then going to a larger caliber is going backwards. That’s the point of this whole thread- 22cals are already “more” than needed and way more than most people want if bullets are optimized. If you want less meat damage, shoot different bullets. Increasing caliber, weight, recoil, and cost; while decreasing shootability- just to yank spark plugs out to damage less meat doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

My point was those bullets suck. The 77 grain sierras I mean. You can have the same problem with most any caliber. But if you don't mind bloodshot meat then it's not a problem.

I know guys that shot 35 AI's and they never blood shot. . That often times what a slower 275 grain bullet will do for you. I don't think a larger caliber is going backwards. Definitely less shootable than a 223 though.

I haven't read the entire thread. There are several thousand comments so I'm sure I've missed something...other than how those pictures looked.

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[Benjblt]

High velocity impact with expanding bullets will cause bloodshot damage even with monometal and bonded bullets. The extent of it depends on the impact velocity and the shot placement. Sometimes bone fragmentation is worse than the bullets!

Jay

I've shot a few, yes only a few, deer at 50 to 75 yards with a barnes 165 grain out of a 300 Win. Almost zero blood shot relative to any lead bullet I've shot. That said, I've not shot solid shoulder so I'm not disputing what you say. I'd just say the difference is vast.

The bloodshot we see with fragmentation of bullets is directly related to the severe damage that so effectively kills. I totally get it. I don't think mono metal bullets kill as well for that very reason except where everything depends on a certain amount of penetration that a lead core bullet can't provide.

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[Formidilosus]

My point was those bullets suck. The 77 grain sierras I mean. You can have the same problem with most any caliber. But if you don't mind bloodshot meat then it's not a problem.

I know guys that shot 35 AI's and they never blood shot. . That often times what a slower 275 grain bullet will do for you. I don't think a larger caliber is going backwards. Definitely less shootable than a 223 though.

I haven't read the entire thread. There are several thousand comments so I'm sure I've missed something...other than how those pictures looked.

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It’s worth reading. If you don’t want so much tissue damage, shoot a different bullet. That’s been explained ad nauseam in this thread.

 

[Drenalin]

What’s the purpose? Not that you have to have one, just curious.

Deer and black bear, 300 yards and in. I get the opportunity to hunt a property along a busy road in a residential area a few times a year. Would be nice to have a rifle that tucks inside a pack there, and is suppressed so the property owner’s phone doesn’t blow up every time I shoot.

 

[justinspicher]

That’s pretty awesome. You could do a 13.7/14.5” with a folding stock and it would be pretty handy as well. Depending on your muzzle adaptor, if you P/W it, it would be a legal 16” gun and you wouldn’t have to worry about the SBR issues. Just a thought…….

Either way, that’s pretty rad and I dig it.

 

[rbutcher1234]

This whole thread has me thinking hard about a 10.5” suppressed AR.

Absolutely do it! They are lethal to distances that would surprise lots of people.

 

[ElPollo]

I've shot a few, yes only a few, deer at 50 to 75 yards with a barnes 165 grain out of a 300 Win. Almost zero blood shot relative to any lead bullet I've shot. That said, I've not shot solid shoulder so I'm not disputing what you say. I'd just say the difference is vast.

The bloodshot we see with fragmentation of bullets is directly related to the severe damage that so effectively kills. I totally get it. I don't think mono metal bullets kill as well for that very reason except where everything depends on a certain amount of penetration that a lead core bullet can't provide.

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I shot monos for several years and have since stopped. I understand your thoughts about meat loss but killing an animal requires damage and it’s all about where you inflict that damage. My issue with monos was that the damage and expansion was not consistent beyond about 200 yards. If you don’t shoot anything further than that, they can work if you stay away from the older TSX bullets. Those can pencil at any speed. I have a friend who has used them well, but he is doing so at about 3200 fps. Personally, I would rather kill things quickly without so much powder, recoil, and blast. But you do what works for you.

 

[fwafwow]

My RS Special build is in the home stretch (barrel cutting and threading next week), so I'm wasting lots of time with analysis paralysis. I don't reload. Although I have 100 rounds of 77 TMKs, I'm thinking about the practice rounds I should purchase. I've read thru the thread for the various practice round recommendations.

1. I've got a bunch of 55gr and 62gr FMJ. Should I just shoot these and then revisit other options?
2. I really wish there was a way to get a caliber "starter pack" of various weights/rounds, from one seller, as to put together any variety seems to require quite a few sellers. As of the moment, I'm about to buy:
   • 68gr BTHP (Frontier) and 73 ELD-M (Hornady Match) from one seller; and
   • 69gr SMK (On Target) and 77gr SMK (On Target) from another seller.
3. Anyone try Defender or On Target brand ammo?

 

[The Guide]

I'd suggest the factory Hornady 73 ELDM since you can get them as low as $22 a box when you buy a case (with free shipping on case lots) which is great for practice ammo if your rifle likes them. Mine does and now that I've upgraded my stock (RAR 5.56 rotary mag from factory stock to KRG Bravo) I'm excited to see how well that they will shoot at distance.

Jay