Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[ddowning]

No. Nothing is being knocked down by a bullet, from the “Energy”. The “energy” doesn’t knock you over when shooting it, it certainly isn’t knocking an animal down.
An animal falling or dropping at the shot happens at times with all calibers and bullets- I’ve killed 3-4 deer with arrows that penetrated only the lungs, where the deer just fell over. It is certain animals reaction to being shot

I have shot one deer with an arrow that was the same. It fell out of sight, and I went sprinting down there thinking it was a spine hit. When I got there, it was lungs only and the deer was stone dead.

My kids have shot deer from less than 100 yards with a highly frangible 300 grain ML bullet going 2650 fps at the muzzle...none have just fallen over unless it was a cns hit.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Adding to the above, I think animals are different in a lot of cases. Just last year I shot a deer at 200ish yards, he took off running and didn’t look hit very well through the scope. He ran 80ish yards at full sprint before completely collapsing.

I shot a whitetail one year with my bow. The BH completely severed the aortic arch from the heart. There was blood spray on the pine trees behind the deer. It still made it 50 yards.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

I'm not who you asked, but I'll chime in.
I've shot 5 good (for SC) whitetail bucks with Leverevolution 325 ftx at from 75 to 125 yards. All practically broadside and shot at base of the neck. None took a step, but they all spun away 45 to 90 degrees on the way down. It's wicked to see when the hammer drops.

I’m at about a dozen deer with a handful of mid sized hogs mixed in as well with a 300gr FTX out of a 12ga slug gun. Not identical but close enough ballistics to be relevant. All but one dropped on the spot from shots tight behind the front shoulder. The one that ran a little was a liver shot but still only made it a very bloody 30y. Only a few of those were close enough to nick the spine at all with a fragment. No spin after the hit that I’ve witnessed though.

 

[Jake Larsen]

I agree with this. Massive trauma to heart and lungs can sometimes cause DRT. There are lots of nerves in the area. But not always. And a trauma inducing bullet definitely has more of a chance of doing it.
.

This is exactly what I suspect as well. I do wonder if certain projectiles create higher odds of this happening. Hard blows to the chest on a human can stop your heart (ask how I know haha), which is clearly a CNS disruption that’s got nothing to do with tissue trauma. I wonder if the physics of how certain bullets are expanding have higher odds of creating that effect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KHntr]

I used to have a big old monster of a chocolate lab that went everywhere with me when I was a bush forester. 127 lbs of muscles on top of muscles. He would run behind atv’s or snowmobiles when he got tired of riding. Point being, that dog was big and fast with a bunch of stamina.

He was outside keeping an eye on my kids one day when they were little and he started up with his Big Angry Dog bark. Living in a rural area and not hearing any vehicles drive in I grabbed the closest rifle on the way to the door. Sako Vixen 223AI and a few 40gr moly’d vmax’s.
When I hit the bottom of the steps and rounded the corner of the house both kids were standing up with that big brown dog in front of them losing his mind at a 3yr old black bear that was walking across the yard, not towards the kids, but on an angle, and not even looking towards the dog or the kids, just cutting distance.

Soon as he heard me yell at the kids to get in the house Chicky figured that bear was fair game and he started charging as hard as he could go. And that dog was fast. That changed that bears mind and he turned and tried to put some distance between himself and that dog. If you’ve ever seen a truly determined bear trying to cover ground you know how fast they can go when they are using all the traction they can generate.

I maintain a policy with bears that they get one chance around the yard, and that chance is to stay the **** out of the yard.
I shot a lot of called coyotes with that Vixen and when the crosshairs were in the black I crushed the trigger. He was about 100 yards out and close to 90* crossing and almost to the tree line when that 40 gr vmax at 3840fps caught him a touch in front of his hind legs. He was stretched out with his back legs just starting to come forward when that little bullet caught him and he was IMMEDIATELY dead in the air. He hit the ground crumpled up with his chin tucked and his body sliding on top. Not even a wiggle and that big dog hit him a second after he stopped sliding.

Near as I could tell the bullet hit him around the back of the liver. It should have resulted in some bouncing and rolling and 15 to 30 seconds of running and bawling, but it didn’t. Just a bear that couldn’t have died any quicker if he had been struck by lightning.

Shoot enough animals with enough different bullets and you’ll see some weird and unexplainable shit.

 

[KenLee]

I used to have a big old monster of a chocolate lab that went everywhere with me when I was a bush forester. 127 lbs of muscles on top of muscles. He would run behind atv’s or snowmobiles when he got tired of riding. Point being, that dog was big and fast with a bunch of stamina.

He was outside keeping an eye on my kids one day when they were little and he started up with his Big Angry Dog bark. Living in a rural area and not hearing any vehicles drive in I grabbed the closest rifle on the way to the door. Sako Vixen 223AI and a few 40gr moly’d vmax’s.
When I hit the bottom of the steps and rounded the corner of the house both kids were standing up with that big brown dog in front of them losing his mind at a 3yr old black bear that was walking across the yard, not towards the kids, but on an angle, and not even looking towards the dog or the kids, just cutting distance.

Soon as he heard me yell at the kids to get in the house Chicky figured that bear was fair game and he started charging as hard as he could go. And that dog was fast. That changed that bears mind and he turned and tried to put some distance between himself and that dog. If you’ve ever seen a truly determined bear trying to cover ground you know how fast they can go when they are using all the traction they can generate.

I maintain a policy with bears that they get one chance around the yard, and that chance is to stay the **** out of the yard.
I shot a lot of called coyotes with that Vixen and when the crosshairs were in the black I crushed the trigger. He was about 100 yards out and close to 90* crossing and almost to the tree line when that 40 gr vmax at 3840fps caught him a touch in front of his hind legs. He was stretched out with his back legs just starting to come forward when that little bullet caught him and he was IMMEDIATELY dead in the air. He hit the ground crumpled up with his chin tucked and his body sliding on top. Not even a wiggle and that big dog hit him a second after he stopped sliding.

Near as I could tell the bullet hit him around the back of the liver. It should have resulted in some bouncing and rolling and 15 to 30 seconds of running and bawling, but it didn’t. Just a bear that couldn’t have died any quicker if he had been struck by lightning.

Shoot enough animals with enough different bullets and you’ll see some weird and unexplainable shit.

30 yrs ago, I started taking my son hunting at age 5. Set up a NEF single shot 243 with 100 gr Hornady btsp (today's cheap Hornady Whitetail ammo).
I was amazed at how fast many of the deer died immediately with some iffy shot placement. I'd be scratching my head thinking that if I'd shot them with my 270 or 30-06 using 130 gr or 165 gr in the same Hornady btsp ammo, the deer would have ran 100-150 yards.
Crazy things happen that can't be explained.

 

[Thegman]

Crazy things happen that can't be explained.

Charlie Daniels agrees...those good ol' boys probably got the idea for the chorus from poaching deer out in Booger woods with 223s.

 

[Southern Lights]

Went out tonight with the thermal for fallow deer and got one at 100y, then came across a pretty good sized red deer at 220y.

I was shooting 55gr Speer bonded SP.

For the fallow, it was a direct facing. Single shot to chest and it went down. Kicked a bit then expired.

Saw the red a few minutes later and worked in closer to make sure I had a solid shot. I hit it in the chest and it remained standing. Hit it another three times in the chest because I was afraid it was going to run and get lost in the bush at night which will be a big pain to find.

By fourth shot it fell after wobbling a bit by the third.

I recovered one bullet on the far side hide. Bullet was perfect mushroom and I'd estimate most weight retained.

Internal organs damage was pretty anemic. My 270 does far more damage.

This deer was over 300lbs. estimate.

Overall, I rate the 223 at reds as very marginal at this range which is what others have told me as well.

I didn't shoot the magic 77gr bullets, but others I know have and reported similar anemic results.

Which gets back to my original comment that for smaller body deer the 223 is fine at 200y and in. But for anything larger I think it's marginal unless you are doing a head/neck shots in which case just about anything will work.

There is not magic to be had here. My larger calibres work better on larger animals.

 

[eric1115]

Went out tonight with the thermal for fallow deer and got one at 100y, then came across a pretty good sized red deer at 220y.

I was shooting 55gr Speer bonded SP.

For the fallow, it was a direct facing. Single shot to chest and it went down. Kicked a bit then expired.

Saw the red a few minutes later and worked in closer to make sure I had a solid shot. I hit it in the chest and it remained standing. Hit it another three times in the chest because I was afraid it was going to run and get lost in the bush at night which will be a big pain to find.

By fourth shot it fell after wobbling a bit by the third.

I recovered one bullet on the far side hide. Bullet was perfect mushroom and I'd estimate most weight retained.

Internal organs damage was pretty anemic. My 270 does far more damage.

This deer was over 300lbs. estimate.

Overall, I rate the 223 at reds as very marginal at this range which is what others have told me as well.

I didn't shoot the magic 77gr bullets, but others I know have and reported similar anemic results.

Which gets back to my original comment that for smaller body deer the 223 is fine at 200y and in. But for anything larger I think it's marginal unless you are doing a head/neck shots in which case just about anything will work.

There is not magic to be had here. My larger calibres work better on larger animals.View attachment 721463View attachment 721464View attachment 721465View attachment 721466

I appreciate the real world results, but you're still missing the point.

A .223 with a bonded 55 SP is a poor choice for larger game at longer ranges. We all agree with that position.

You refuse to try the bullet that lets the .223 produce the largest wound channel it can. If I said, "you keep talking about the .270 as an effective long range killer. Well I shot an elk at 400 with a 6.8SPC and it was pretty underwhelming. I didn't use your magic .270win, but others have and they said it didn't work any better," would you take that as a valid counterargument to your position? No. I've got a .27 caliber bullet, but it's a very different performance bracket. Same with the TMK. Try it. Shoot a few deer with it and see what it does

Sincerely,
A former skeptic

 

[omicron1792]

Went out tonight with the thermal for fallow deer and got one at 100y, then came across a pretty good sized red deer at 220y.

I was shooting 55gr Speer bonded SP.

For the fallow, it was a direct facing. Single shot to chest and it went down. Kicked a bit then expired.

Saw the red a few minutes later and worked in closer to make sure I had a solid shot. I hit it in the chest and it remained standing. Hit it another three times in the chest because I was afraid it was going to run and get lost in the bush at night which will be a big pain to find.

By fourth shot it fell after wobbling a bit by the third.

I recovered one bullet on the far side hide. Bullet was perfect mushroom and I'd estimate most weight retained.

Internal organs damage was pretty anemic. My 270 does far more damage.

This deer was over 300lbs. estimate.

Overall, I rate the 223 at reds as very marginal at this range which is what others have told me as well.

I didn't shoot the magic 77gr bullets, but others I know have and reported similar anemic results.

Which gets back to my original comment that for smaller body deer the 223 is fine at 200y and in. But for anything larger I think it's marginal unless you are doing a head/neck shots in which case just about anything will work.

There is not magic to be had here. My larger calibres work better on larger animals.View attachment 721463View attachment 721464View attachment 721465View attachment 721466

I think this post proves the thread right more than wrong. Bullets matter not caliber

 

[mt100gr.]

Went out tonight with the thermal for fallow deer and got one at 100y, then came across a pretty good sized red deer at 220y.

I was shooting 55gr Speer bonded SP.

For the fallow, it was a direct facing. Single shot to chest and it went down. Kicked a bit then expired.

Saw the red a few minutes later and worked in closer to make sure I had a solid shot. I hit it in the chest and it remained standing. Hit it another three times in the chest because I was afraid it was going to run and get lost in the bush at night which will be a big pain to find.

By fourth shot it fell after wobbling a bit by the third.

I recovered one bullet on the far side hide. Bullet was perfect mushroom and I'd estimate most weight retained.

Internal organs damage was pretty anemic. My 270 does far more damage.

This deer was over 300lbs. estimate.

Overall, I rate the 223 at reds as very marginal at this range which is what others have told me as well.

I didn't shoot the magic 77gr bullets, but others I know have and reported similar anemic results.

Which gets back to my original comment that for smaller body deer the 223 is fine at 200y and in. But for anything larger I think it's marginal unless you are doing a head/neck shots in which case just about anything will work.

There is not magic to be had here. My larger calibres work better on larger animals.View attachment 721463View attachment 721464View attachment 721465View attachment 721466

You're definitely missing the point. Bullet selection is all on you - mediocre input = mediocre results.

You need to try the 77gr TMK.

 

[Buzzsaw]

Great thread, 19 pages worth of opinions

 

[Formidilosus]

I didn't shoot the magic 77gr bullets, but others I know have and reported similar anemic results.

No they haven’t.

 

[Rich M]

If you go and use a light caliber and lose the animal you'll regret it. Use what you would normally use. Stop worrying about it so much.

 

[5811]

I think that until people shoot a really accurate and well set up 223 bolt gun, they don't understand how easy it is or what a difference it makes.

 

[Southern Lights]

I'm working on finding components to put together a 77gr TMK load. I don't doubt that a .223 bullet that breaks up would kill better vs. the bonded SP.

But for 223 everyone is saying there is this one combo that works and everything else is marginal. And, I agree.

However, I've shot a good number of deer in larger calibres with different hunting bullets and they all pretty much work well. Not much difference between many of them. There is not this critical "you must use this bullet and nothing else" stuff. That alone tells you it's marginal to do it.

The 223 is also marginal at distance in the wind making shot placement harder.

Overall, a problem on multiple fronts.

I shoot and love the 223 and shoot heaps of it. But for any serious hunt I wouldn't be using it. I only use it for culling where an animal running off and getting lost won't be an issue.

 

[Shortschaf]

I'm working on finding components to put together a 77gr TMK load. I don't doubt that a .223 bullet that breaks up would kill better vs. the bonded SP.

But for 223 everyone is saying there is this one combo that works and everything else is marginal. And, I agree.

However, I've shot a good number of deer in larger calibres with different hunting bullets and they all pretty much work well. Not much difference between many of them. There is not this critical "you must use this bullet and nothing else" stuff. That alone tells you it's marginal to do it.

The 223 is also marginal at distance in the wind making shot placement harder.

Overall, a problem on multiple fronts.

I shoot and love the 223 and shoot heaps of it. But for any serious hunt I wouldn't be using it. I only use it for culling where an animal running off and getting lost won't be an issue.

This thread and poll is about using a 223 or 6mm caliber, not necessarily .223 rem

 

[Formidilosus]

But for 223 everyone is saying there is this one combo that works and everything else is marginal. And, I agree.

No, that’s hot what’s being said. The 77gr TMK may be the current high water mark for killing, however the 73/75/80/88gr ELD-M’s and 80gr ELD-X; a couple of the Berger VLD’s, and the Barnes 85gr MatchBurners all kill very well. The 75gr Speer Gold dot does too, as well as the 69gr TMK- though a bit less penetration. None of those are as overall devastating as the 77gr TMK, but they all create wounds nearly indistinguishable from larger carriages and similar bullets.

However, I've shot a good number of deer in larger calibres with different hunting bullets and they all pretty much work well. Not much difference between many of them. There is not this critical "you must use this bullet and nothing else" stuff. That alone tells you it's marginal to do it.

Again, not correct. There are quite a few that kill fantastically. And, even if it was just one bullet- so? If one magical bullet is producing massive wounds and killing on demand- it’s doing it, and there isn’t anything marginal about it.

The 223 is also marginal at distance in the wind making shot placement harder.

In hundreds of game animals, the 223 with high bc fragmenting bullets has had by far the highest hit rate and lowest wound rate of any caliber/cartridge to 450’ish yards.

where an animal running off and getting lost won't be an issue.

Well that a big issue for me and everyone I hunt with for all animals. While NZ culture is different than almost anywhere else in the world with regard to animal recovery; it is an unacceptable thing here. And yet, I and other continue to use .22 cals with good bullets over other chamberings, even on once in a lifetime tags.


Having said that, the thread is 223 or 6mm, and when I am not choosing a .22cal, 6mm is what it chosen nearly 100% of the time.