.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[WRO]

You mean you haven’t had to put “four perfectly placed shots” from 25/06, 270, 270wsm’s in elk to kill them like with the 30 cal?






Do you not understand how illogical this statement above is?

You are literally saying- “it’s ok that I put four perfectly placed rounds from this big 30cal magnum- but it’s not ok that one shot from ‘x’ caliber didn’t drop an elk immediately”.

No one has an agenda here, they are just looking for logical thought processes and honesty. Your position is illogical and intellectually dishonest.
On top of that, you have functionally 0 experience with a topic, but then are giving advice about how to do it to others- advice that is absolutely wrong (400 yard max and mono’s)- and you are arguing with multiple people that have from a dozen (in one year) to hundreds of big game animals killed with 22cals- including 50+ elk.
I, and others are trying to make sense of that.

You typically don’t need 4 well rounds with a 30 magnum..

This whole shoot them 20 times until they die then call it a win is idiotic..

Fact it there’s allot of times you only get one shot, and shooting a small match bullet that typically leave a poor blood trail isn’t the right answer.


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[Formidilosus]

You typically don’t need 4 well rounds with a 30 magnum..

What does typical have to do with anything? I’ve shot or seen shot a bunch of elk with 30cals- only a couple went down immediately with a singe shot. The vast majority were shot 2-4 times before they hit the ground. Beyond that, there are hundreds to thousands of videos on YouTube of elk being shot in the chest with large magnums and every bullet imaginable, and standing there for 20 second to minutes. Lots being shot multiple times.

This whole shoot them 20 times until they die then call it a win is idiotic..

Who says that? Can you quote that?

Or is it- “keep shooting animals until they fall”? You know, like the person I quoted did with a large 30cal magnum and a 22cal. But it is ok when it’s a 30cal, but not ok when it’s a 22cal.

Fact it there’s allot of times you only get one shot, and shooting a small match bullet that typically leave a poor blood trail isn’t the right answer.

Almost exactly half the elk I have shot or been apart of being shot with 215gr Berger Hybrids have not exited. How’s that blood trail?

From 22 cal to 338’s, in over a hundred elk, the highest percentage of one shot hits and down before a second round can be sent is the 6XC and 6UM with 115gr Nosering DTAC’s. They also have the highest percentage of exits (about 70%) regardless angle.

 

[AkRyan]

Shot a nice black bear at 80yrds with a 7mm08 150g eldx and that ****** ran 200yards with no lungs. Everything else we have shot with that bullet died with feet of where it was shot.

 

[Formidilosus]

I personally have killed many elk and seen even more killed. Ive shot them with smaller guns and what i noticed is 30 calibers do better. Now of a 30 caliber does better then a 25/06 with the same bullet what makes me believe a 22 creed-moor would do better? None the less i still tried it. It did not perform to what i want to see. You guys keep bringing up this 4 shot thing but still have not answered would a 22 creedmoor made that situation any better at all? No it wouldn’t have

You didn’t address anything I wrote.

Is is ok to shoot an elk multiple times with a 30cal?

Is it ok to shoot an elk multiple times with 22cals?

 

[Southern Lights]

Of course one of the best benefits of low recoiling caliber is that you have the option to take multiple accurate follow-up shots on an animal if needed.

Or you can shoot the magnum and take multiple inaccurate follow-ups in a panic after you mess up the first shot.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Of course one of the best benefits of low recoiling caliber is that you have the option to take multiple accurate follow-up shots on an animal if needed.

Or you can shoot the magnum and take multiple inaccurate follow-ups in a panic after you mess up the first shot.

I think the mistake people make is assuming that those who shoot magnums act like that or are wrong. I don’t own a single magnum any more (280 AI and 6.5 PRC are the biggest), but I used to have a safe full of them.

If you can shoot them accurately (many people can), magnums are fine. If a 105gr berger out of a 6CM will kill elk and deer perfectly fine, a 215gr berger out of a 300 rum is just more of a good thing.

There are some facts that need to be stated:

1. Larger calibers don’t compensate for poor shot placement. Unless we are talking 50 cals and FMJs.

2. Bullet construction can compensate for poor shot placement, regardless of the caliber. A bonded or mono won’t do this. Match bullets that penetrate a few inches and grenade do.

3. Most people are recoil shy and shoot smaller cartridges better than larger ones.

4. Most people aren’t MOA or better shooters and large recoiling cartridges don’t help.

 

[WRO]

What does typical have to do with anything? I’ve shot or seen shot a bunch of elk with 30cals- only a couple went down immediately with a singe shot. The vast majority were shot 2-4 times before they hit the ground. Beyond that, there are hundreds to thousands of videos on YouTube of elk being shot in the chest with large magnums and every bullet imaginable, and standing there for 20 second to minutes. Lots being shot multiple times.






Who says that? Can you quote that?

Or is it- “keep shooting animals until they fall”? You know, like the person I quoted did with a large 30cal magnum and a 22cal. But it is ok when it’s a 30cal, but not ok when it’s a 22cal.





Almost exactly half the elk I have shot or been apart of being shot with 215gr Berger Hybrids have not exited. How’s that blood trail?

From 22 cal to 338’s, in over a hundred elk, the highest percentage of one shot hits and down before a second round can be sent is the 6XC and 6UM with 115gr Nosering DTAC’s. They also have the highest percentage of exits (about 70%) regardless angle.

I’ve shot 20 or so with 225s-230s, two of those were took a second shot, none required a track job.

All the elk I’ve killed with my 6.5 took a couple and or had a tracking job.

Match bullets leave shitty blood trails whether it’s a small one or a big one typically.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’ve shot 20 or so with 225s-230s, two of those were took a second shot, none required a track job.

“Took a second shot”, or fell so quickly that no one could have shot again?

I have tracked two elk in more than a hundred with CF rifles- all cartridges and calibers combined.

All the elk I’ve killed with my 6.5 took a couple and or had a tracking job.

“Took a couple” or they were still standing so you shot again?

Match bullets leave shitty blood trails whether it’s a small one or a big one typically.

? How does this make you argument?

 

[Tanner]

I’ve shot 20 or so with 225s-230s, two of those were took a second shot, none required a track job.

All the elk I’ve killed with my 6.5 took a couple and or had a tracking job.

Match bullets leave shitty blood trails whether it’s a small one or a big one typically.

You’ve killed 20 elk with 225s and 230s ? Which bullets?

 

[WRO]

You’ve killed 20 elk with 225s and 230s ? Which bullets?

ELDM’s (225’s) and 230 OTM bergers.. It’s like 3 223 bullets at the same time lol..

 

[WRO]

“Took a second shot”, or fell so quickly that no one could have shot again?

I have tracked two elk in more than a hundred with CF rifles- all cartridges and calibers combined.







“Took a couple” or they were still standing so you shot again?





? How does this make you argument?

DRT, no time for a second shot.

Took a couple, as in they were leaving town. The two off hand both had pocket double lung shots.

I was agreeing with you, not everything is a fukin argument on the blood trails.

 

[Formidilosus]

DRT, no time for a second shot.

I’m pure lung shots or invoking bone?

I was agreeing with you, not everything is a fukin argument on the blood trails.

What? I’m not arguing- I am trying to understand your point that you are trying to make, logically.

You wrote this-

Fact it there’s allot of times you only get one shot, and shooting a small match bullet that typically leave a poor blood trail isn’t the right answer.

So what is that getting to say? Because it reads, along with your other posts that “bigger bullets leave better blood trails”, yet you just stated that isn’t what you meant.


What bullet are you using that consistently and on demand leaves good blood trails from elk?

 

[Tanner]

ELDM’s (225’s) and 230 OTM bergers.. It’s like 3 223 bullets at the same time lol..

Damn. You must’ve been using them since they first came out.

 

[WRO]

Damn. You must’ve been using them since they first came out.

I hunt multiple states every year, OTM’s were 2014, averaged 2 a year personally since then, switched to 225 eldms in 19.

 

[mtnbound]

I think the mistake people make is assuming that those who shoot magnums act like that or are wrong. I don’t own a single magnum any more (280 AI and 6.5 PRC are the biggest), but I used to have a safe full of them.

If you can shoot them accurately (many people can), magnums are fine. If a 105gr berger out of a 6CM will kill elk and deer perfectly fine, a 215gr berger out of a 300 rum is just more of a good thing.

There are some facts that need to be stated:

1. Larger calibers don’t compensate for poor shot placement. Unless we are talking 50 cals and FMJs.

2. Bullet construction can compensate for poor shot placement, regardless of the caliber. A bonded or mono won’t do this. Match bullets that penetrate a few inches and grenade do.

3. Most people are recoil shy and shoot smaller cartridges better than larger ones.

4. Most people aren’t MOA or better shooters and large recoiling cartridges don’t help.

Curious, can you expand more on #2.


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[WRO]

I’m pure lung shots or invoking bone?





What? I’m not arguing- I am trying to understand your point that you are trying to make, logically.

You wrote this-




So what is that getting to say? Because it reads, along with your other posts that “bigger bullets leave better blood trails”, yet you just stated that isn’t what you meant.


What bullet are you using that consistently and on demand leaves good blood trails from elk?

I shoot try to them through both shoulder with a big bullet, so I don’t worry about blood trails as a general rule. The smaller bullets have not given me the “splash” even when hitting a scapula that a big bullet does.

My argument is that if you’re going to push small bullets that require multiple shots typically to anchor one in a reasonable distance, advocating for a small round that leave little blood trail in many situations is a recipe for the coyotes to eat well.

This is all talked about in perfect world type scenarios, for every on point person I have taken, there’s an equal amount of shit shows that either through nerves or excitement will not make a good first round hit. Bigger the wound channel and damage is more forgiving.

For the record, I’ve seen plenty of shit die with smaller calibers, not saying it doesn’t work, there’s just better options.

 

[Formidilosus]

I shoot try to them through both shoulder with a big bullet, so I don’t worry about blood trails as a general rule. The smaller bullets have not given me the “splash” even when hitting a scapula that a big bullet does

What does “splash” mean? You’ve shot high shoulder through/into the spine and the animals didn’t fall?

My argument is that if you’re going to push small bullets that require multiple shots typically to anchor one in a reasonable distance,

They don’t require multiple shots to anchor them in a reasonable distance. You shoot them through the spine, or near it- with any of them and they drop. Elk shot through both scapulas where the temporary cavity affects the spine, drop with every caliber.

advocating for a small round that leave little blood trail in many situations is a recipe for the coyotes to eat well.

You’ve lost elk shot through the lungs with “small rounds”? But haven’t lost elk shot through the lungs with large rounds?


I’m trying to find the consistent logical reasoning in what you are writing.

This is all talked about in perfect world type scenarios,

Who is? It certainly isn’t me. Over half the elk I’ve killed or been apart of have been public land elk- lots of them bulls. Some open, some in the timber.

for every on point person I have taken, there’s an equal amount of shit shows that either through nerves or excitement will not make a good first round hit. Bigger the wound channel and damage is more forgiving.

More forgiving base on what? I am asking for specifics. Because the above is word salad. What elk, what bullet, what impact velocity, what placement, what organs, what time frame to incapacitation. And the same exact (or as close as feasible) situations with a 30cal, that impact at the velocity, same placement, same organs affected, etc.

I have filled threads full of pictures of animals and wounds channels- lots of them with “small” calibers and “large” calibers used in elk from the same herd, side by side. I have seen very little difference in behavior of those elk with like placement regardless of caliber. Bullets have certainly made a difference.
Shooter performance- that is the amount of animals/shots per capita, however has been dramatically different between “calibers”. 30cal mags have by leaps and bounds more rodeos and crap shows than all small calibers combined.

 

[huntnful]

Curious, can you expand more on #2.


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This is a pretty god damn decent shot @Formidilosus put on a bull elk with a 95 TMK.


It was still alive minutes later, jumped from it’s bed, and then killed.

I personally have an extremely hard time believing if that shot was made with a 225 ELDM with an 8” wound channel that it wouldn’t have been dead when he got to it based off what I saw from shooting that bullet. It was 100% in vitals, but not enough overall damage to kill it in several minutes. (I’m sure it would have died eventually)

In all honesty, do you feel the outcome of the second shot, with this exact particular shot would have been different with a 225 ELDM? @Formidilosus

 

[Formidilosus]

In all honesty, do you feel the outcome, with this exact particular shot would have been different with a 225 ELDM? @Formidilosus

No. That shot was quartering away, from slightly above. It went through the very back of the lungs. I’ve seen 3-4 elk shot high rear lungs with 225’s that needed more shots to stop. 1st off, 225 ELD-M’s do not create 8” wound channels below 2,800’ish fps impact- below 2,400’ish is more like 3” to 4”. Those massive TC’s are due to extremely high impact velocity, once you get below 2,500’ish or so FPS, the wound channels are often indistinguishable between calibers- especially elk.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Curious, can you expand more on #2.


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Sure - when a bullet like a TMK, Berger or ELDM comes apart, the fragments shoot in all directions causing major damage and a massive wound cavity. So, you shoot one a little back and there is still a good chance one of the fragments hit vitals. Even it if doesnt hit vitals, the fragments destroy guts and they usually don’t make it very far. A mono or bonded that stays together will have a wound channel if it opens up, but no where near as devastating as a cup and core bullet that fragments.

That is why people who shoot bonded or monolithic bullets can’t wrap their head around a 223 or 6CM being adequate for elk. It is all about bullet construction and performance.