.204 Stainless Outsert Options

[cvanman]

Ok, so I am moving away from the .166 / 4mm arrows due to lack of stainless outsert options.

I guess it is back to .204! Does anyone have any recommendations for .204 stainless one-piece outserts. Looking for an outsert in the 50-75 grain range.

I don't want to deal with half-outs, looking for something that covers the end of the shaft. Also, I don't want a system that requires me to use their broadheads - i.e. Valkyrie, snyder core

Ethics is too heavy.

Any other options.

 

[doc holiday13]

So are you not at all interested in using a SS collar??

stock easton aluminum HITS are 16g and a SS collar can be as light as 40g.

If you're stuck on using a half out, black eagle has SS half outs that weigh 52g

 

[cvanman]

I would prefer not to use a half out at all - a full outsert would be much stronger.

I have never run a HIT. I always thought you had to run a deep six head with a HIT. Am I wrong?

I figured a 1 piece would be stronger than using a collar. I am not opposed to a collar.

Which SS collar are you recommending?

 

[svivian]

You can run standard broadhead threads with a HIT insert, that the beauty of it. I would run either ethics or Iron will collars and you will have a very strong setup. You can also look at iron will for HIT inserts in Stainless steel or buy brass for adding weight up front.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I have never run a HIT. I always thought you had to run a deep six head with a HIT. Am I wrong?

.166"/4mm HIT's have Deep Six (6-40) threads, but .204"/5mm HIT's are standard (8-32) thread. Easton offers .204"/5mm HIT's in aluminum (16 gr) and brass (50-75 gr). Iron Will and Ethics also make them in other weights and materials.

 

[doc holiday13]

The HIT insert for 5mm arrows is literally inserted and glued/epoxied into the shaft and you use standard component points and broadheads

Iron Will and Ethics both make SS collars you can buy

Impact Collars

Broken arrows don't get the job done, so we engineered Impact Collars to protect your arrow shafts. Similar to a footer, these sleeves slide over the end of your arrow and provide a barrier of protection between the delicate carbon and broadhead. And because we don't do anything halfway, Impact...

ironwilloutfitters.com

Universal Footer with End Cap, .276

.310 = 5/16" (Use .310 points) May require gluing or sanding Use with Deep Six and HIT inserts Titanium is available only in 3 Pk and 6 Pk options.

ethicsarchery.com

I just installed some ethics components this weekend. I had to very very lightly sand the OD on the arrow shaft w/ 350 grit paper to get a nice slip/interference fit. I fit the collar and insert together as single unit held together with a field point. Then I clocked the collar and insert till they spun true with a dry fit on my arrow. I marked the arrow and collar and pulled them as a single unit to apply glue and put them back in the way they came out

I'm switching to collar systems because My last 3 broken arrows were 5mm arrows that blew out in the "unsupported" section of carbon between my broadhead/field point and the HIT insert.

 

[Billy Goat]

You want to use a hit insert system. Pick the insert weight you want, then if you feel like you still need it, use a collar of your choice and subtract that weight from your insert, lots of options.

As others said, the hit system allows you to use standard broadheads, and you get the durability of a system that isn't getting leverage put on it like an outsert or a half-out.


Squaring the end of the arrow is still very important with a hit system.

 

[Planopurist]

I'm switching to collar systems because My last 3 broken arrows were 5mm arrows that blew out in the "unsupported" section of carbon between my broadhead/field point and the HIT insert.

Were these blow outs on a target, animal, or from some hard impact like a rock or tree?


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[doc holiday13]

Were these blow outs on a target, animal, or from some hard impact like a rock or tree?


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Blow outs on animals and hard impacts. The hard impacts were on firewood when I over penetrated the target.

the one on an animals was when I got about 50% of the arrow into the deer and entry was through the front leg. the ferrule on the broadhead snapped because of unsupported carbon getting lateral force of the animal running

All 3 of these arrows were Easton Axis 300 spine arrows. It took me 8 years to destroy/loose near a dozen arrows but these last 3 were memorable because I went into the hunting season knowing I'd have to buy new arrows for 2022. I currently have 2 remaining arrows

 

[nphunter]

HIT's will be your best bet, Easton Aluminum and IW Titanium footers will give you a 25gr insert/collar combo and be very durable. The aluminum his are super cheap and the collars aren't too expensive, you can buy 6 and switch them over when you damage arrows.

 

[doverpack12]

In 204 arrows, hit combo with a footer/collar on the outside are by far the most durable option. There isn’t a half out made that can outlast the hit/collar option and you can adjust weight with insert and collar.

I’ve been messing with insert options for a few years on 204 arrows. Stainless IW insert with titanium collar came out on top of a cinder block impact (unintentional). Only other option is an Easton RPS insert with deep six threads but is like an insert on 246 diameter arrows and it’s steel.

 

[5MilesBack]

I've been using HIT's for 15 years in several different brands of .204" arrows that I've used or tested. IMO arrow shaft construction is the biggest factor in durability and toughness, regardless of what insert design you use. However, that insert design will show those arrow flaws in a hurry as well. I shoot at 32"+ draw at 70+ lbs so my arrows smack everything hard. My preferred insert systems are in order as follows:

(1) HIT's only
(2) Ethics SS half-out
(3) HIT's with a collar

Would the HIT's with a collar be more durable than HIT's only? Probably. But over those 15 years I can only count an extremely small percentage of the arrows I've shot that might have done better with a collar.......and none of those were arrows shot at, into, or through animals......including grouse. But I do test my arrows with BH's as best I can by shooting them through 3/4" plywood straight on and at severe angles, and the same into 2x6's.

I am 100% confident in my setup on animals, but if I break an arrow shooting a concrete wall........then so be it.

 

[Planopurist]

Blow outs on animals and hard impacts. The hard impacts were on firewood when I over penetrated the target.

the one on an animals was when I got about 50% of the arrow into the deer and entry was through the front leg. the ferrule on the broadhead snapped because of unsupported carbon getting lateral force of the animal running

All 3 of these arrows were Easton Axis 300 spine arrows. It took me 8 years to destroy/loose near a dozen arrows but these last 3 were memorable because I went into the hunting season knowing I'd have to buy new arrows for 2022. I currently have 2 remaining arrows

Gotcha. The blowouts you describe wouldn’t really bother me on a recovered animal. Also, I have excellent targets that I don’t think I could shoot through.


@StraightWayOutdoors
Straight Way Outdoors, Fulcrum Archery, Elite Archery, Upwind Odor Elimination, Wicked Twisted Bowstrings, Pine Ridge Archery, Sevr Broadheads, Bloodline Fibers, Element Arrows

 

[LOB39]

I know you said no to ethics archery, but they are adjustable down to that weight range you are talking about. I use their clean cut adjustable static insert and you can customize how much you want it to weight. They have been absolutely money on my Victory RIP TKO arrows. I've shot two mule deer recently with them, clean pass throughs without any damage to the insert. Still spin true.

I know you could add a collar too, but i don't prefer them. I have just been running with the inserts and it has worked very well for me. Very durable.

 

[Zac]

Spotify – Mobile Web Player

open.spotify.com

Pretty interesting, the .204 specific episode is in the works, but this has alot of good info as well.

 

[Planopurist]

The entire Firenock series has been tremendous. I’m considering the Firenock half out, but I’d like to hear the .204 episode first.


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[Zac]

The entire Firenock series has been tremendous. I’m considering the Firenock half out, but I’d like to hear the .204 episode first.


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I always thought the HIT was the best system. However Dorge had alot of arguments against it.

 

[5MilesBack]

However Dorge had alot of arguments against it.

I'm not going to watch the almost hour video, but would be interested to hear exactly what his arguments against them were.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I'm not going to watch the almost hour video, but would be interested to hear exactly what his arguments against them were.

Lack of concentricity with the shaft and tendency of the front end of the shaft to splinter/mushroom. Skip to 8:47 if you want to hear a brief summary of his criticisms.

He claims that since the HIT is (necessarily) smaller than the shaft ID, adhesive can pool on one side and cause misalignment between the shaft and insert. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HIT's, I haven't had trouble with concentricity.

The front end splintering/mushrooming issue (if it exists) seems easily solvable with a collar.

I appreciate Dorge's ingenuity and relentless quest for improvement, but some of his products seem like expensive solutions to perceived problems that for all practical purposes have no discernable consequence.

 

[5MilesBack]

Lack of concentricity with the shaft and tendency of the front end of the shaft to splinter/mushroom.

In 15 years and many dozens of .204" arrows tested or used, I've never seen the concentricity issue. I would imagine that showing up on an arrow spinner as wobble. But gee, isn't every insert that's put in an arrow smaller than the ID of the shaft? So wouldn't that be a problem for all inserts if that really was a problem? On my RIP TKO's the brass HIT's wouldn't go in at all. I had to screw them onto a concentric field point that I tightened in my drill, and then held some 600 grit Silicone Carbide paper against them while they spun. Worked perfectly, and probably created an even better bond with the arrow shafts.

The mushrooming thing I only saw on certain arrow types, but not all. So as I've always said......if folks are going to use arrows that mushroom, then use the collars. But IMO the only way they can mushroom is if the epoxy bond is broken. And if that's the case, then even a half out can push back into the arrow if the bond is broken.