1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Fatcamp]

The new SA-35 4" from Springfield looks pretty sweet for a modern Hi-Power, especially for the price.
View attachment 1050204

First pistol I ever fired was a Hi-Power. I was 13 and my left hand was broke and in a cast. In Garden of the God's if that tells you anything about how long ago it was.

 

[RussDXT]

Between the HD 4x and the 3.6 what would be the overall recommendation?

 

[Escalante11]

Another question comparing CZ ergos and geometry to 1911. The CZs in general appear to have a noticeably lower bore axis, relative to the top of the grip beavertail. They also generally have a more undercut trigger guard. Seems like this would all help get a higher grip more in line with the recoil path (like a Rokstock). Assuming you had two platforms with same weight, length, ammo, no ports/comps, etc, would this not result in a flatter shooting gun? Or are there other details in the geometry that more than make up for this difference?

Also, the grip angles look almost identical between CZ and 1911s.

I'll preface this saying I'm a Shadow 2 fan, they are the easy button here, and in many ways and superior to 2011s of the same price range in my opinion. That said, I don't view them to be flatter shooting than 1911/2011s.

A bit of a tangent now but I don't believe how flat a pistol shoots it a reliable predictor of shootability or accuracy, and I think we over emphasize it in our pistol choices. Everyone talks about the bore axis of the CZs as being some mythical thing but it doesn't result in that meaningful of a difference in how flat or shootable they are.

A bit of a tanget but related here, I don't think how "flat a gun is really translates to much about it's shootability. A great example of this is the Walther PDP Pro. It's a lightweight striker fired pistol with a terrible bore axis. To the eye it screams "terrible" shooter. That said, and everyone who has shoot them knows, there is something magical about the overall ergonimics and grip of those things that make them stupid easy/fast to shoot. They are not a flat shooting pistol but they defy expectations with how quickly and effortlessly the dot/sights return to zero.

 

[rbutcher1234]

I'll preface this saying I'm a Shadow 2 fan, they are the easy button here, and in many ways and superior to 2011s of the same price range in my opinion. That said, I don't view them to be flatter shooting than 1911/2011s.

A bit of a tangent now but I don't believe how flat a pistol shoots it a reliable predictor of shootability or accuracy, and I think we over emphasize it in our pistol choices.

A great example of this is the Walther PDP Pro. It's a lightweight striker fired pistol with a terrible bore axis. Everything about it screams "terrible" shooter. That said, and everyone who has shoot them knows, there is something magical about the overall ergonimics and grip of those things that make them stupid easy to shoot. They are not a flat shooting pistol but there is something magical about how your dot, or sights, return to you aimpoint effortlessly and quickly.

I think sights returning to your aiming point effortlessly and quickly at speed is the exact thing people mean when they say a pistol is “flat shooting”.

If you think flat shooting means something else, what do you think it means?

 

[JohnJohnson]

Just watched a video on that subject.

 

[RockAndSage]

I think sights returning to your aiming point effortlessly and quickly at speed is the exact thing people mean when they say a pistol is “flat shooting”.

If you think flat shooting means something else, what do you think it means?

I'd actually describe that as "fast", rather than flat. To me, flat means the dot doesn't rise as high inside the window. Fast means it can rise a lot, or even right out on smaller guns, but then comes right back down quickly as the gun completes its cycle.

 

[Escalante11]

I think sights returning to your aiming point effortlessly and quickly at speed is the exact thing people mean when they say a pistol is “flat shooting”.

If you think flat shooting means something else, what do you think it means?

What I'm saying is that how flat your pistol is on recoil (or how limited the muzzle rise is) does not by itself translate to shootability or speed of a given pistol.

How naturally your pistol returns to your original aim point is just as, if not more, important than how "flat" you gun is and these two factors are not mutually attached. There are guns that are "flat" but not as natural to return to center. There are also guns that are "not flat" but return back to center effortlessly with little input required from the shooter.

For example, Glock 19/45s are undeniably "flatter" shooters than a PDP Pro. They are a softer platform with less muzzle rise. That said, most people can shoot PDP Pros materially faster, including myself. There is more disruption in my sight picture with the PDP Pro, but it always settles right back on center without much, if any, shooter input. The Glock 19/45s exhibit less disruption in my sight picture on recoil, but I have to force and find the dot back to my center aim point.

Limited muzzle rise on recoil is a great characterisitic to seek in a pistol. But how quickly and naturally a pistol returns to zero after recoil is more important in my opinion. Ideally, you have a gun that exhibits both i) limited muzzle rise, and ii) a natural return to zero. An easy and forgivable trigger is obviously a third key input to this all.

 

[rbutcher1234]

Ok great, I appreciate the clarification. There seems to be a lot of terms used by people that end up referring to the same thing, so I was trying to avoid confusion here.

 

[Nine Banger]

If you think flat shooting means something else, what do you think it means?

Flat Shooting:

 

[RockAndSage]

Ok great, I appreciate the clarification. There seems to be a lot of terms used by people that end up referring to the same thing, so I was trying to avoid confusion here.

Yeah, it is a problem, and an easy one for someone to swap meanings with depending on who they're talking to. Been guilty of that myself.

A good example would be the differences I've experienced between the Staccato C and DWX Compact. The C has an excellent return-to-zero, but I wouldn't call it either "fast" or "flat shooting" in the gun-nerd sense - but it's fast as hell in indexing onto a target and returning that dot back to point of aim. Softer and more pleasant to shoot than any other commander/G19 sized gun I can think of, but I also wouldn't call it "soft shooting" in the gun-nerd sense. It's a really good venn-diagram blend of fast, flat, and soft, but not really any of them. The DWXc is a violent little machine, really snappy with a lot of muzzle rise comparatively, but "fast" in getting that dot back to target.

 

[RockAndSage]

Just watched a video on that subject.

Enjoyed that video, good to see someone talking about it and trying to get to some common understandings.

 

[RockAndSage]

Anyone know if someone's making an Aimpoint COA plate for Staccatos?

 

[RussDXT]

Anyone know if someone's making an Aimpoint COA plate for Staccatos?

I called forward control designs today to ask that. They said the way they have to mill the slides for it a plate will be very difficult, substantial higher than other sights, and not something they plan to offer soon if ever.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Anyone know if someone's making an Aimpoint COA plate for Staccatos?

I haven't been able to find anyone who will do a coa cut on a non Glock. Been looking since SHOT

 

[RockAndSage]

I called forward control designs today to ask that. They said the way they have to mill the slides for it a plate will be very difficult, substantial higher than other sights, and not something they plan to offer soon if ever.

That's a bummer. FCD puts out some really excellent work, too. But it makes sense.

 

[Dobermann]

I haven't been able to find anyone who will do a coa cut on a non Glock. Been looking since SHOT

Hmm ... Form seemed to suggest that someone would do it ... maybe hit him up directly?

 

[43.6N]

For anyone looking for wood grips, I’ve used 2 different brands, and wanted to offer a comparison.

First is Wood Caliber walnut in their “combat checkering” pattern.
-these have a nice sharp 20LPI checkering pattern that carries very easily against skin and clothes. They handle well in dry conditions, and look awesome. Really nice fit/finish.
-Only drawback is they start getting slick when any moisture gets on your hands.


Since I’ve been shooting in a lot of rain lately, I wanted to see if there was a more aggressive set of wood grips. A retired FBI agent I met at work told me about a company out of Twin Falls Idaho called Herrett’s stocks.

I looked through their website and decided to take a flyer on a set.
- they are 16LPI, and feel similar to a barbell with new sharp knurling.
- shot in the rain today, and they stayed well planted.
-they are slightly thinner than the wood caliber grips.
-tbd if they snag on clothes. But I’m not expecting any issues.

Nice to have options for anyone in the market

 

[Dobermann]

-tbd if they snag on clothes. But I’m not expecting any issues.

This would be the interesting part ...

 

[fwafwow]

Two updates.

First, I finally shot the C with the RMR HD. I found the auto brightness adjustment to be a bit on the bright side, so I may need to tinker with it. I also need some work on improving.

I also shot my CS today. I like it. I do not yet have a RDS for it. I almost bought 2 when I bought my RMR HD for the C, but I didn't. Now the price seems to be all over the place for that RDS, except only all over the place significantly above what I paid for the first one.

I did have an issue with the CS (which I purchased through the Staccato CPO program). The slide would not lock in the open position after the last round. I tried both of the magazines that came with it (OEM and "brand new" per the company). I eventually figured out that both magazines are the problem. (I put a C 17 round magazine in the CS and had no issues manually racking and locking the slide with an unloaded magazine.) The company sent me a warranty claim link, and I'm sure it will all be fixed. But this development isn't cool. I've had zero problems with the 6 mags I have for the C.

Anyone else have OEM mag troubles with the CS (2024)?

 

[cubdriver84d]

Two updates.

First, I finally shot the C with the RMR HD. I found the auto brightness adjustment to be a bit on the bright side, so I may need to tinker with it. I also need some work on improving.

I also shot my CS today. I like it. I do not yet have a RDS for it. I almost bought 2 when I bought my RMR HD for the C, but I didn't. Now the price seems to be all over the place for that RDS, except only all over the place significantly above what I paid for the first one.

I did have an issue with the CS (which I purchased through the Staccato CPO program). The slide would not lock in the open position after the last round. I tried both of the magazines that came with it (OEM and "brand new" per the company). I eventually figured out that both magazines are the problem. (I put a C 17 round magazine in the CS and had no issues manually racking and locking the slide with an unloaded magazine.) The company sent me a warranty claim link, and I'm sure it will all be fixed. But this development isn't cool. I've had zero problems with the 6 mags I have for the C.

Anyone else have OEM mag troubles with the CS (2024)?

No issues with five mags (3 16ers and 2 15ers) in my 2023 cs. I guess the newest 15 doesn’t drop freely when it’s released but I suspect it will after some more use.