Wyoming proposal to slash Non-resident hunters

[Bobbyboe]

Buzz, you know that isn't accurate. If the state goes to 90/10, non-residents won't end up with 10% of the permits. For a non-resident to have an opportunity to draw a tag for an area, that area has to have at least 10 permits available. For any area with a quota lower than 10, no tag would be offered to a non-resident. So for sheep, using last years quotas, non-residents would be limited to 12 tags under the new proposal. That is down from 45 permits offered last year. That equates to almost a 75% reduction in sheep.

I have already done the math for moose previously in this thread and it is almost 70%. 22 tags vs 65 tags

I can understand why you don't want to list accurate information but some of us do understand the system.

Nothing new with Buzz. He consistently posts inaccurate numbers in an attempt to push his agenda. He never corrects himself and just lets his bad math ride.

Same as his comments about the District 12 senator being voted out. A quick search shows that there has only been one person running for that position for the last several races. In 2020 there was finally a opponent in the race. He also ignored the fact that she was voted onto the WY advisory board.

That’s what makes this argument tiring, he is not a truth teller. He may think he is, but it’s been proven over and over through the years.

 

[BuzzH]

Nothing new with Buzz. He consistently posts inaccurate numbers in an attempt to push his agenda. He never corrects himself and just lets his bad math ride.

Same as his comments about the District 12 senator being voted out. A quick search shows that there has only been one person running for that position for the last several races. In 2020 there was finally a opponent in the race. He also ignored the fact that she was voted onto the WY advisory board.

That’s what makes this argument tiring, he is not a truth teller. He may think he is, but it’s been proven over and over through the years.

Isn't it rather strange, that all of a sudden, out of the blue, somebody decides to run against her?

Even more crazy that an incumbent would get beat like a rented mule...

Anselmi-Dalton was not voted on the Wildlife task force...appointed would be the word you're looking for.

Your story...make it as big as you want.

 

[Laramie]

Did you BOTHER to read?

CURRENT splits.

I also understand what was in the bill, but I believe that will have to be changed as CURRENTLY, the allocations are based on total tags. In some cases, NR's receive 100% of a district allocation of sheep tags, or 50% in areas that offer only 2 tags.

You're also making the assumption that under the proposed bill that the Commission would have still offered 10% of the TOTAL sheep licenses issued to NR. I saw NOTHING in that bill that stated otherwise.

Your math MAY be right, IF, the areas with less than 10 tags were totally excluded on a statewide NR allocation. The way I read the bill, the 10% would have been based on a statewide total, including tag numbers in the areas with less than 10 tags issued.

There were some questions that need to be addressed...there will be a lot of people looking at and clarifying some of these issues.

90-10 in some form is going to pass, and that's really the important part of the issue.

So to make sure I understand you correctly, are you in support of actually giving 10% of the total permits for moose and sheep? That would give non-residents 32 moose tags and 16 sheep tags per year.

Don't want to answer this one?

Either my initial numbers were correct and you were incorrect or I misunderstood you and you are actually in favor of giving non-residents the actual 10%.

 

[Trial153]

I don't have to advocate for NR in NY state. They are already treated the same as residents except for the license cost
NY has about 38000 plus NR Hunting licenses sold each year. There is no quota on NR license sales.
Our resident license is 22dollars NR license is 100 dollars. That gets you both a deer and bear tag.
Muzzleloader and bow stamps are 15 dollars for residents and 30 for NR they each come with a deer tag.

So 160 gets a NR Three deer tags and bear tag and small game hunting.
There are over 4million acres of state city and public lands to hunt and fish. Both residents and NR can disperse camp in any of the forever wild regions of the Catskill Park and Adirondack park, which's like 3.5 million acres.
We, NYBHA have never lobbied for any restriction to be placed on NR. our revenue split is about 70/30 with residents funding the majority of the DEC budget for fish and wildlife.
I think our state treats NR very fairly.

 

[EJFS]

Actually that would change things dramatically for the guys who have been applying for 15+ years. It essentially doubles or triples the time left. If a 60 year old was within 5-10 years of drawing, now with the change he will be 10-20+ years away. Hunting moose in your 70s or 80s isn't realistic for most of us.

I agree- there are tons of opportunities out west. I gladly pay for them yearly. Doesn't change the fact a lot of good people stand to lose 1000s of dollars and an opportunity at something they have invested in for decades.

I thought we all learned long ago that the preference point thing for these low draw units is a scam, it would really suck to have put in for 15+ years and watched your odds continue to decline, but like any Ponzi scheme someone is gonna be left holding the bag.

 

[Laramie]

I thought we all learned long ago that the preference point thing for these low draw units is a scam, it would really suck to have put in for 15+ years and watched your odds continue to decline, but like any Ponzi scheme someone is gonna be left holding the bag.

Actually the odds have remained pretty consistent if a guy was focused on the long term. Wyoming was, and has remained, different. Up to this point they have absolutely held up their end of the agreement regarding most big game. The management, the tags, the system- no complaints and have been very happy.

I think everyone has always been aware that it can't stay great forever but that doesn't mean a guy shouldn't stand up for what he believes. Just like Buzz stands for his beliefs and causes, so do many of us.

My hope is for some kind of compromise but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[tdhanses]

So let me getting this right. You are asking me a question about trophy quality and herd health in Wyoming, but think Wyoming needs more wolves.

Let me ask the question again. What have YOU done for NR in Kansas, not what Kansas has done for the NR. Waiting.....

I hunt multiple states throughout the west and Midwest. If a state decides they want to give more welfare tags (outfitters) or put a larger percentage of tags in resident hands I don't cry on an internet form, I just choose not to spend my money there. NM is a perfect example.

Half the people crying about Wyoming aren't doing a thing in their own state for NR.....fact.

Well being I’m not a commissioner I can’t do a thing directly but I wouldn’t vote out any commissioners that bring better opportunities to NR such as KS has done.

Seems the residents want more trophies then meat in WY, am I wrong? Otherwise why the reduction in tags for only certain things, why not across the board? Why would residents brag about getting 15 tags?

Bravo for you staying silent and just being ok with it. Also if you don’t cry why join in, voicing an opinion is crying today I get that and yes I will decide with my pocket book on many things if NR opportunities continue to decrease with the years.

NM is a perfect example, I don’t even consider hunting there, looks like that list will grow in the next few years and that wont matter till all NR opportunities disappear with time.

 

[sneaky]

I can't say that I am.

Convince me to not write my congressman and senators.........

An equal shot on Federal ground is a good start.



Can't say that I will because so far, I have little to no hope for better odds than 100/0.



Anti what? Anti Non-Resident?



Same question. Anti what? Anti non-resident is about the same as anti-hunter where I am at.



On the property they own.

On Federal property - we all get a voice.


Wanna bet?



What have I got to loose? Why should I care?

All 320 million of us do have a say if we want to to.

Shut us out and see what we say.



Loss of what? I've got next to nill as a chance and that is declining. What have I lost?



States aren't any better than the Feds, unless you happen to be a "state" resident.



Federal = we all own as residents.

No different than private property. Yeah, the state regulates (I can't say owns) the wildlife harvest, but the property owner still controls if you can enter.



Trade ya. 600 acres out west is a postage stamp.

Not disagreeing with charging NR a higher price. Been paying that for years and it is to hunt on private property - that my family owns.

States can do what they wish with land they or the citizens of the state own.

On Federal property - I am also a resident.

I said 600k, not 600 acres. Also, stroll up to any military installation and tell them you're going to walk around... you know, because you own it. Federal land too.

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[sneaky]

They do it an AZ all the time, not a few but a lot. Throwing $$ away. Crazy!

Same as guys jumping in in CO buying elk points for unit 2 or 201 thinking they'll have a chance at drawing lol. Maybe if they live to be 700yrs old

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[307]

Also, stroll up to any military installation and tell them you're going to walk around... you know, because you own it. Federal land too.

...or maybe an unauthorized stroll through the Capitol building?

 

[tdhanses]

Same as guys jumping in in CO buying elk points for unit 2 or 201 thinking they'll have a chance at drawing lol. Maybe if they live to be 700yrs old

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Yeah but they at the very least have options to burn their points once they realize it’ll never happen. That’s the difficult thing with sheep, goat, moose and bison, can’t just pick a lower quality unit and draw, this applies to residents as well.

 

[Steve O]

Yeah but they at the very least have options to burn their points once they realize it’ll never happen. That’s the difficult thing with sheep, goat, moose and bison, can’t just pick a lower quality unit and draw, this applies to residents as well.

Well for sheep you can. But they are all wilderness, or at least where the sheep reside is wilderness, so you need to hire your friendly Wyoming outfitter for $ xx,xxx.

 

[tdhanses]

Well for sheep you can. But they are all wilderness, or at least where the sheep reside is wilderness, so you need to hire your friendly Wyoming outfitter for $ xx,xxx.

Would it be cost effective to just go that route if pricing keeps going up over the next few years/decade till you think you’ll draw?

The MT unlimited units wouldn’t be too much further of a drive really.

Have you ever looked at the goat and sheep hunting in BC just across the border, last I looked into it I could do goat for $8k and add on bighorn for $12k. I chatted with Byan Martin about the outfitter and he was very positive about them. That was 3 years ago or so, I’m sure pricing has gone up.

 

[Steve O]

Would it be cost effective to just go that route if pricing keeps going up over the next few years/decade till you think you’ll draw?

The MT unlimited units wouldn’t be too much further of a drive really.

I’ve seen the Unlimiteds; a younger more reckless me would not even attempt them. I will take my chances in Wyoming!

 

[npm352]

Wanna bet?

I can't say that I am.

Convince me to not write my congressman and senators.........

An equal shot on Federal ground is a good start.



Can't say that I will because so far, I have little to no hope for better odds than 100/0.



Anti what? Anti Non-Resident?



Same question. Anti what? Anti non-resident is about the same as anti-hunter where I am at.



On the property they own.

On Federal property - we all get a voice.


Wanna bet?



What have I got to loose? Why should I care?

All 320 million of us do have a say if we want to to.

Shut us out and see what we say.



Loss of what? I've got next to nill as a chance and that is declining. What have I lost?



States aren't any better than the Feds, unless you happen to be a "state" resident.



Federal = we all own as residents.

No different than private property. Yeah, the state regulates (I can't say owns) the wildlife harvest, but the property owner still controls if you can enter.



Trade ya. 600 acres out west is a postage stamp.

Not disagreeing with charging NR a higher price. Been paying that for years and it is to hunt on private property - that my family owns.

States can do what they wish with land they or the citizens of the state own.

On Federal property - I am also a resident.

Do I "wanna bet" it would be almost impossible to change the law on states being able to discriminate against other states financially for only hunting and fishing licenses and college tuition?

Actually yes.

Is it possible to change Article IV (privileges and immunities clause) of the United States Constitution that is backed up/interpreted by a 195-year-old US Supreme Court precedence (among others)? Yes...it is possible, but nearly impossible.

So yes, write your congressman and ask him to alter the US Constitution and prove to me how simple and easy this process is.....

 

[25orSo]

In response to 25- Quote got jacked up.

Thanks for the info. I knew there was some out there.

So tell me how much you advocate for NR in your state. Do tell....

I have for several years. Not a member of some lobby group though.

When my state wanted to increase fees & lower harvest limits, I responded to the survey, signed the petitions and attended the regional meeting & spoke to oppose the changes.

Mostly what I do is take non-residents hunting. A good friend that lives in Nevada now will be my non-resident guest in Kentucky as well as Tennessee this year.

I think I phrased that poorly. These guys whining about losing NR opportunities thinking the feds are gonna save them are gonna be bummed.

Not thinking the Fed's are gonna save anything, nor will I be the one near as bummed when they try.

Hell, I didn't even draw a deer tag in my state last year. Yes, I am a resident and have to draw deer tags.

So, while you are sitting there saying that residents are just being greedy, we are fighting to keep some of our opportunity as well.

That sucks and I'm not saying all residents are being greedy. Some states.....

Many in the West play the NR game as well.

We do the same on this side as well. Indiana gun season laws are screwy. I see quite a few IN plates on the south side of the Ohio. Don't blame them one bit.

I said 600k, not 600 acres. Also, stroll up to any military installation and tell them you're going to walk around... you know, because you own it. Federal land too.

My bad, missed the k.

Military installation.

I was talking about land that is considered publicly accessible. Not military installations, capital buildings etc.


48.19% of Wyoming is Federal Property. That is 30,043,512 acres out of a total of 62,343,040.
That is a lot of our (all US citizens) property.
There are 7 other states that have more Federal Property than Wy. I didn't look up those numbers.

In comparison, 4.25% of Kentucky, or 1,083,104 acres is owned by the federal government. A big chunk of that will be Fort Knox and Fort Campbell, so not public access land.

So yes, write your congressman and ask him to alter the US Constitution and prove to me how simple and easy this process is.....

The property can be closed and/or sold without modifying the constitution.

When someone like Jeff Bezos comes along and wants to stroke the Fed's a check......... your gonna need some non-resident help.

That change will only effect a few non-residents. It won't effect anything that happens in our back yard per say.

You have to keep the hook baited well enough to keep even us small fish looking and interested. There are a lot of us small fish in the pond.

 

[npm352]

Thanks for the info. I knew there was some out there.


I have for several years. Not a member of some lobby group though.

When my state wanted to increase fees & lower harvest limits, I responded to the survey, signed the petitions and attended the regional meeting & spoke to oppose the changes.

Mostly what I do is take non-residents hunting. A good friend that lives in Nevada now will be my non-resident guest in Kentucky as well as Tennessee this year.


Not thinking the Fed's are gonna save anything, nor will I be the one near as bummed when they try.


That sucks and I'm not saying all residents are being greedy. Some states.....


We do the same on this side as well. Indiana gun season laws are screwy. I see quite a few IN plates on the south side of the Ohio. Don't blame them one bit.

My bad, missed the k.

Military installation.

I was talking about land that is considered publicly accessible. Not military installations, capital buildings etc.


48.19% of Wyoming is Federal Property. That is 30,043,512 acres out of a total of 62,343,040.
That is a lot of our (all US citizens) property.
There are 7 other states that have more Federal Property than Wy. I didn't look up those numbers.

In comparison, 4.25% of Kentucky, or 1,083,104 acres is owned by the federal government. A big chunk of that will be Fort Knox and Fort Campbell, so not public access land.




The property can be closed and/or sold without modifying the constitution.

When someone like Jeff Bezos comes along and wants to stroke the Fed's a check......... your gonna need some non-resident help.

That change will only effect a few non-residents. It won't effect anything that happens in our back yard per say.

You have to keep the hook baited well enough to keep even us small fish looking and interested. There are a lot of us small fish in the pond.

Again, for states to be forced to treat NR the same as residents financially for draws, it would mean changing the constitution. Read the post. Jeff Bezos has nothing to do with changing constitution.

I am not a WY resident. I am just telling you your plan will not work.

 

[AP577]

This would be unfortunate for us NR Hunters

 

[tdhanses]

Again, for states to be forced to treat NR the same as residents financially for draws, it would mean changing the constitution. Read the post. Jeff Bezos has nothing to do with changing constitution.

I am not a WY resident. I am just telling you your plan will not work.

I don’t think anyone expects states to treat NR equally in pricing and tag allocations, just to not keep reducing our already limited opportunities. Truthfully NR hunting is not something for the poor, it’s expensive and only getting more expensive. Resident opportunities are very good and cheap across the board for meat hunts.

Maybe trophy hunting should have its own category because that’s all the recent changes are about.

 

[npm352]

I don’t think anyone expects states to treat NR equally in pricing and tag allocations, just to not keep reducing our already limited opportunities. Truthfully NR hunting is not something for the poor, it’s expensive and only getting more expensive. Resident opportunities are very good and cheap across the board for meat hunts.

Maybe trophy hunting should have its own category because that’s all the recent changes are about.

My original response to him was because he was expecting states to treat R and NR equally in regards to prices and quotas.

He wrote: "On Federal property - there should only be one license, one cost, one quota, one draw. The state can set the tag limit to manage the widlife, that is their job. They can set the price, but only one price. Everyone that wants to play- pays the same for the same chance to play."