Wyoming proposal to slash Non-resident hunters

[Osubuck]

Just remember UNITED WE STAND! DIVIDED WE FALL!!! We should all be on the same team here or everyone will eventually loose their right to hunt. Greed is an evil thing

 

[dukeball33]

I still want to know why NR get any allocation at all. It's been established on here that the state doesn't need the money, it doesn't need the economic impact NR hunting imparts on the economy. And that all wildlife belongs to the state. So why shouldn't the residents of the state should fully benefit from it.
If 90/10 is good why not go 100/0?
In fact why don't all western states go 100/0?

I am sure it's out of the goodness of their hearts and resident sportman in an abundance of goodwill lobby for it. If the fine displays of comradery we seen here are any indication that must be the answer.

So if 90/10 is good then why isnt 100/0 the gold standard?

Honestly, it's probably the outfitter industry that prevents 100/0 for LE. Although economic impact to local towns and loss of other outside funding mechanisms could be small contributors too. I'm not well versed on the different levels of this, so don't want to talk out my arse too much but... I'm guessing if you took whatever NR quota and created a Resident '"special" pool that had equivalent NR price ($1100) the only complaints would come from NR. If you take a tough to draw elk unit as an example... 150 Type 1 tags and 1100 resident applicants, you are really asking 15 of 1100 people to fork out the extra money for the same opportunity only at a higher price (well less than 15 once raffle tags and Landowner tags are removed). Draw odds are say around 8% for said unit, return interval on that is 1/.08 = 12.5 years... if you were a resident would you pay more to hunt a tag that statistics say is a 1 in 12 year event??? I would guess 10%-ish of WY residents apply in other states so it shows there is R demand and willingness to pay that money for opportunity. (14 max point for NR to guarantee a tag, not that much different than return interval for R, 12.5 compared to 14). and 14 years guarantees a tag for NR, 12.5 doesn't for resident. I understand R is pure random but trying to compare as best as possible.

The devil is in the details and this is very simplified but I hope the message comes across. Would there be problems with regular/special and odds? probably. Would NR be pissed, yes, would that result in less funding to RMEF, WSF, MDF? Maybe/probably. Will it happen, haven't even made it to 90/10 so not anytime soon but other western states maybe sooner. Edit: I think BBob answered this to some extent (i.e. special odds would be just as crappy as regular odds at some point, but "special" odds could fluctuate depending on which pool residents entered.

On top of all this if you allowed unsubscribed tags and general area hunting by NR (which demand is high for, takes 3 points to guarantee NR gen tag for elk), economic impact to communities may be small, but outfitters would hate it.

 

[BuzzH]

Hey Buzz.

Question for you. When the team put the revenue estimates together for this legislation, do you know what were the assumptions made for future revenue from NR Preference Points? Was it assumed that NR would continue buying preference points at the current rate? Grow by X%? Reduce by X%? Just curious.

That was up to LSO to provide the fiscal note for the bill.

It showed a revenue increase of over 8 million a year...have no idea what the assumptions were for NR preference points.

 

[String&stick]

In not going to lie, this would harm my odds and investment, and I wouldn't be happy about it, but as stated previously I can see the gripe. . . But honest question for about 80% of you. While you continue to whale and Nash teeth have you emailed or called the taskforce members to share productive thoughts and options with them???

800+ posts shows me people have lots of spare time, but pissing and moaning here just gets you slapped around by Buzz or Trail, please make sure you are contacting those that matter and having constructive dialogue!!!

Anyway back to my . . .

 

[lif]

In not going to lie, this would harm my odds and investment, and I wouldn't be happy about it, but as stated previously I can see the gripe. . . But honest question for about 80% of you. While you continue to whale and Nash teeth have you emailed or called the taskforce members to share productive thoughts and options with them???

800+ posts shows me people have lots of spare time, but pissing and moaning here just gets you slapped around by Buzz or Trail, please make sure you are contacting those that matter and having constructive dialogue!!!

Anyway back to my . . .

You as well.

 

[BuzzH]

In not going to lie, this would harm my odds and investment, and I wouldn't be happy about it, but as stated previously I can see the gripe. . . But honest question for about 80% of you. While you continue to whale and Nash teeth have you emailed or called the taskforce members to share productive thoughts and options with them???

800+ posts shows me people have lots of spare time, but pissing and moaning here just gets you slapped around by Buzz or Trail, please make sure you are contacting those that matter and having constructive dialogue!!!

Anyway back to my . . .

Yes.

Doing more than that as well....

 

[Slugz]

Provide a link to the thread you are referring to at Eastmans? I would be interested to see the difference.

You can register there as a member and see it.

 

[sneaky]

How‘s he any different then the residents for us NR guys? Seems both are only out for themselves so find it funny when a resident calls him out.

I think it's because most WY residents agree the wilderness law is stupid, but WOGA will defend that til ol Sy is 6ft under.

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[sneaky]

Been thinking about this today.

First thought, on Federal property - we are all residents regardless of our mailing address as long as it is one of the 50 states that make up this country.

I am good with the states setting the rules for tags and access to state or private land.

I have as much skin in the game on Federal property as the guy that lives next door to it and should have as much equal chance to hunt it.

By my count about 7 western states are being talked about here. That is 14% of the 50 states.

Those 14% of states want to limit the rest of us to 10% access to property we equally own.

On Federal property - there should only be one license, one cost, one quota, one draw. The state can set the tag limit to manage the widlife, that is their job. They can set the price, but only one price. Everyone that wants to play- pays the same for the same chance to play.

As some have pointed out, the state "owns" the game. 50 States own the Federal property. About 14% of the states enjoy the majority of the Federal property. Tell me why the the 86% of the rest of us shouldn't Post No Hunting signs.

Last I checked, every state back east that has NF or other federal property in them charge NR a higher cost than they do for residents. You want your cake and to eat it too. Our tax dollars pay for that land as well. I grew up next to 600k acres of NF back east, don't say it's any different.

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[wyodan]

Provide a link to the thread you are referring to at Eastmans? I would be interested to see the difference.

I think this is probably the one they are referring to.

2021 WY Bill for Tag Increases

Nope, not forgetting that at all. Wyoming just made a change this year that NR's don't have to buy a point to enter the NR draw for random tags. They know most NR's are pretty capable of third grade math and are going to be not buying the points. Those with 18-20 will keep buying them, and even...

forum.eastmans.com

 

[CorbLand]

I think this is probably the one they are referring to.

2021 WY Bill for Tag Increases

Nope, not forgetting that at all. Wyoming just made a change this year that NR's don't have to buy a point to enter the NR draw for random tags. They know most NR's are pretty capable of third grade math and are going to be not buying the points. Those with 18-20 will keep buying them, and even...

forum.eastmans.com

Thank you.

 

[wind gypsy]

Honestly, it's probably the outfitter industry that prevents 100/0 for LE. Although economic impact to local towns and loss of other outside funding mechanisms could be small contributors too. I'm not well versed on the different levels of this, so don't want to talk out my arse too much but... I'm guessing if you took whatever NR quota and created a Resident '"special" pool that had equivalent NR price ($1100) the only complaints would come from NR. If you take a tough to draw elk unit as an example... 150 Type 1 tags and 1100 resident applicants, you are really asking 15 of 1100 people to fork out the extra money for the same opportunity only at a higher price (well less than 15 once raffle tags and Landowner tags are removed). Draw odds are say around 8% for said unit, return interval on that is 1/.08 = 12.5 years... if you were a resident would you pay more to hunt a tag that statistics say is a 1 in 12 year event??? I would guess 10%-ish of WY residents apply in other states so it shows there is R demand and willingness to pay that money for opportunity. (14 max point for NR to guarantee a tag, not that much different than return interval for R, 12.5 compared to 14). and 14 years guarantees a tag for NR, 12.5 doesn't for resident. I understand R is pure random but trying to compare as best as possible.

The devil is in the details and this is very simplified but I hope the message comes across. Would there be problems with regular/special and odds? probably. Would NR be pissed, yes, would that result in less funding to RMEF, WSF, MDF? Maybe/probably. Will it happen, haven't even made it to 90/10 so not anytime soon but other western states maybe sooner. Edit: I think BBob answered this to some extent (i.e. special odds would be just as crappy as regular odds at some point, but "special" odds could fluctuate depending on which pool residents entered.

On top of all this if you allowed unsubscribed tags and general area hunting by NR (which demand is high for, takes 3 points to guarantee NR gen tag for elk), economic impact to communities may be small, but outfitters would hate it.

Far as I can tell, there are nearly twice as many NRs invested in WY Elk preference points as there are WY residents who purchase a hunting license (for any species) annually. Residents will not replace the $ from NR.

 

[tdhanses]

This cracked me up

 

[mlgc20]

Provide a link to the thread you are referring to at Eastmans? I would be interested to see the difference.

Looked like basically the same cast of characters having the same discussion to me.

 

[CorbLand]

Looked like basically the same cast of characters having the same discussion to me.

Yea, unless he is referring to another thread, I don't really see that big of a difference between the two.

 

[Spiral Horn]

The entire draw/point system was created by Wyoming (not the NRs) and we NRs were inticed to participate by the promise that building preference points would eventually lead to that prized tag. But alas, I along with many others were naive enough to believe that Wyoming would actually honor that agreement when it was really nothing more than just a ruse/shell game to get NR funding.

What is a bit surprising is that it isn’t Antis or some other special interest group championing this current NR tag grab, but Wyoming resident hunters. Why? Simply because they can pressure their legislators into doing it for their personal benefit. Is it fair or just? Certainly not for the folks who’ve been playing by the rules set by Wyoming for the last few decades. Always thought it would be the Antis who would be leading the charge to take away my hunting opportunities and never dreamed these efforts would be led by other hunters.

For those who say, “I don’t see why Wyoming doesn’t do away with all NR hunting.” That would certainly be more honest than reduction of tag allocations to next to nothing. But the truthful answer is simple. It would cost them a fortune in NR fees and it would also make them ineligible for a host of Federal funds. Not to mention the supporting revenues generated within the state from visiting hunters.

While residents might high-five over pulling NR wings off in the short term, alienating large groups of their current (now former) allies just isn’t a wise long term move. The timing is also terrible for them, as they will very shortly be needing all of the friends and support they can get. Wyoming is about to come under a deluge of assault on their revenue streams and use of Federal land that they’ve enjoyed just about forever. Wyoming was already hit by the EO on energy leases. That was just the first salvo. After they’re engaging on multiple fronts is just about the time major efforts from hunting opponents show up.

 

[slick]

Welp. Sign me up as a NR that will continue to participate in WY’s opportunities.


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[Bobbyboe]

The entire draw/point system was created by Wyoming (not the NRs) and we NRs were inticed to participate by the promise that building preference points would eventually lead to that prized tag. But alas, I along with many others were naive enough to believe that Wyoming would actually honor that agreement when it was really nothing more than just a ruse/shell game to get NR funding.

What is a bit surprising is that it isn’t Antis or some other special interest group championing this current NR tag grab, but Wyoming resident hunters. Why? Simply because they can pressure their legislators into doing it for their personal benefit. Is it fair or just? Certainly not for the folks who’ve been playing by the rules set by Wyoming for the last few decades. Always thought it would be the Antis who would be the leading the charge to take away my hunting opportunities and never dreamed these efforts would be led by other hunters.

For those who say, “I don’t see why Wyoming doesn’t do away with all NR hunting.” That would certainly be more honest than reduction of tag allocations to next to nothing. But the truthful answer is simple. It would cost them a fortune in NR fees and it would also make them ineligible for a host of Federal funds. Not to mention the supporting revenues generated within the state from visiting hunters.

While residents might high-five over pulling NR wings off in the short term, alienating large groups of their current (now former) allies just isn’t a wise long term move. The timing is also terrible for them, as they will very shortly be needing all of the friends and support they can get. Wyoming is about to come under a deluge of assault on their revenue streams and use of Federal land that they’ve enjoyed just about forever. Wyoming was already hit by the EO on energy leases. That was just the first salvo. After they’re engaging on multiple fronts is just about the time major efforts from hunting opponents show up.

Not to mention they already have unlimited access to general deer and elk tags, all while continuing to limit non resident general deer tags. This isn't about opportunity, its about trophy hunting opportunity.

I guess we'll see how it shakes out over the next few years. But, it sure seems like the math being used just doesn't work. Are people really going to pay for yearly preference points and buy an antelope tag for 600? I sure wont. For me the low point units aren't worth it already at current prices. Sure, maybe for your first hunt, but who needs 2, 3, 4 or more average bucks when they cost 600? Same meat as a doe, only 10x more cost.

 

[25orSo]

I hope all of you folks advocating for the Federal government to regulate hunting access are just being dramatic.

I can't say that I am.

Convince me to not write my congressman and senators.........

An equal shot on Federal ground is a good start.

Careful what you wish for. The feds shut down lands in Alaska last year to only the localist of the locals. Some of you guys are gonna feel awfully stupid when the states are offering 90/10 and feds offer 100/0.

Can't say that I will because so far, I have little to no hope for better odds than 100/0.

Be careful everyone. Nothing better than having us hate each other for the anti’s.

Anti what? Anti Non-Resident?

It sure seems like We are super good at bitching and complaining to and at each other. And tearing each other apart... instead of coming together and standing together against the anti’s

Same question. Anti what? Anti non-resident is about the same as anti-hunter where I am at.

I don't mind sharing but the State and their Residents that have curated the resource for a very long time before you came along should get to decide who gets the resource.

On the property they own.

On Federal property - we all get a voice.

I wish it was different, but it is not going anywhere. Federal law allows for states to financially discriminate against other states in only two ways: college tuition and hunting/fishing licenses.

That will be all but impossible to change.

Wanna bet?

For those that think the Federal Government should have say in this. Think about this. The Federal Government cant even guarantee/manage your rights given to you from the start. You think that they will do a better job at managing wildlife? You think that support for hunting is going to increase and its going to get better when all 320 million have a say?

What have I got to loose? Why should I care?

All 320 million of us do have a say if we want to to.

Shut us out and see what we say.

NR hunters are in for a rude awaking the next few decades when they come to realization that some of the very policies they supported and financed led to the demise of their already limited opportunity.

Loss of what? I've got next to nill as a chance and that is declining. What have I lost?

What I am not going to do is advocate to break down a system that works and is proven it works. State governments are inefficient and bad a managing anything. Federal governments are worse.

States aren't any better than the Feds, unless you happen to be a "state" resident.

I am baffled that there are still so many that do not understand the federal land vs state wildlife issue.

Federal = we all own as residents.

No different than private property. Yeah, the state regulates (I can't say owns) the wildlife harvest, but the property owner still controls if you can enter.

Last I checked, every state back east that has NF or other federal property in them charge NR a higher cost than they do for residents. You want your cake and to eat it too. Our tax dollars pay for that land as well. I grew up next to 600k acres of NF back east, don't say it's any different.

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Trade ya. 600 acres out west is a postage stamp.

Not disagreeing with charging NR a higher price. Been paying that for years and it is to hunt on private property - that my family owns.

States can do what they wish with land they or the citizens of the state own.

On Federal property - I am also a resident.

 

[Trial153]

I can't say that I am.

Convince me to not write my congressman and senators.........

An equal shot on Federal ground is a good start.



Can't say that I will because so far, I have little to no hope for better odds than 100/0.



Anti what? Anti Non-Resident?



Same question. Anti what? Anti non-resident is about the same as anti-hunter where I am at.



On the property they own.

On Federal property - we all get a voice.


Wanna bet?



What have I got to loose? Why should I care?

All 320 million of us do have a say if we want to to.

Shut us out and see what we say.



Loss of what? I've got next to nill as a chance and that is declining. What have I lost?



States aren't any better than the Feds, unless you happen to be a "state" resident.



Federal = we all own as residents.

No different than private property. Yeah, the state regulates (I can't say owns) the wildlife harvest, but the property owner still controls if you can enter.



Trade ya. 600 acres out west is a postage stamp.

Not disagreeing with charging NR a higher price. Been paying that for years and it is to hunt on private property - that my family owns.

States can do what they wish with land they or the citizens of the state own.

On Federal property - I am also a resident.