Wyoming Passes 90/10: The Worst Article You’ll Read This Year

[JM77]

That's a bit different than buying pts for 20 years for a 25% chance, to have it later reduced to no more than 10% after being significantly invested. That's the crux of the change, not the change itself.

Did you really think you had a 25% chance with your points? 25% was percentage of tags in the NR draw, not the chance of drawing

But after reading through this thread, this is one of many mistakes and falsehoods being made. That includes some of the ridiculous statements Guy made in the article.

I have attended every Task Force meeting and spoke one on one with many of the members. There will be no recommendation by the TF to change DEA to 90/10. There will be no transferable Ranch Only tags(similar to RFW). Points for the Big 5, both res and NR are going to be changed to bonus points. PP will stay for NR DEA. There may be discussion on outfitter set-asides, but no discussion as of yet. I have my doubts it will happen. Never say never, right?

90/10, big five was a recommendation of the TF to the legislature to give more tags for these premium species to residents at the request of residents. No, not all 100% of residents wanted or cared, but a majority by a large margin were in favor. The G&F Dept played no role what so ever in supporting 90/10, although both the Director of the Dept and the Commissioner on the TF voted yes in the unanimous decision. All those saying this is a scam by the G&F are wrong. Changing to bonus is a way that every applicant has a chance. The TF was hearing how broke the system already was and is trying to give every applicant a chance with the squared bonus system. This has not reached a final vote yet.

In the end, many people are devoting a lot of time to try and facilitate change and they are well meaning people who have thoroughly discussed some controversial issues. I hope I have cleared up some misconceptions, because frankly reading some of what's on this thread is painstaking.

 

[Rob5589]

Did you really think you had a 25% chance with your points? 25% was percentage of tags in the NR draw, not the chance of drawing

But after reading through this thread, this is one of many mistakes and falsehoods being made. That includes some of the ridiculous statements Guy made in the article.

I have attended every Task Force meeting and spoke one on one with many of the members. There will be no recommendation by the TF to change DEA to 90/10. There will be no transferable Ranch Only tags(similar to RFW). Points for the Big 5, both res and NR are going to be changed bonus points. PP will stay for NR DEA. There may be discussion on outfitter set-asides, but no discussion as of yet. I have my doubts it will happen. Never say never, right?

90/10, big five was a recommendation of the TF to the legislature to give more tags for these premium species to residents at the request of residents. No, not all 100% of residents wanted or cared, but a majority by a large margin were in favor. The G&F Dept played no role what so ever in supporting 90/10, although both the Director of the Dept and the Commissioner on the TF voted yes in the unanimous decision. All those saying this is a scam by the G&F are wrong. Changing to bonus is a way that every applicant has a chance. The TF was hearing how broke the system already was and is trying to give every applicant a chance with the squared bonus system. This has not reached a final vote yet.

In the end, many people are devoting a lot of time to try and facilitate change and they are well meaning people who have thoroughly discussed some controversial issues. I hope I have cleared up some misconceptions, because frankly reading some of what's on this thread is painstaking.

That's what I meant, 25% of the tags. Didn't come out that way, however.

 

[tdhanses]

Did you really think you had a 25% chance with your points? 25% was percentage of tags in the NR draw, not the chance of drawing

But after reading through this thread, this is one of many mistakes and falsehoods being made. That includes some of the ridiculous statements Guy made in the article.

I have attended every Task Force meeting and spoke one on one with many of the members. There will be no recommendation by the TF to change DEA to 90/10. There will be no transferable Ranch Only tags(similar to RFW). Points for the Big 5, both res and NR are going to be changed to bonus points. PP will stay for NR DEA. There may be discussion on outfitter set-asides, but no discussion as of yet. I have my doubts it will happen. Never say never, right?

90/10, big five was a recommendation of the TF to the legislature to give more tags for these premium species to residents at the request of residents. No, not all 100% of residents wanted or cared, but a majority by a large margin were in favor. The G&F Dept played no role what so ever in supporting 90/10, although both the Director of the Dept and the Commissioner on the TF voted yes in the unanimous decision. All those saying this is a scam by the G&F are wrong. Changing to bonus is a way that every applicant has a chance. The TF was hearing how broke the system already was and is trying to give every applicant a chance with the squared bonus system. This has not reached a final vote yet.

In the end, many people are devoting a lot of time to try and facilitate change and they are well meaning people who have thoroughly discussed some controversial issues. I hope I have cleared up some misconceptions, because frankly reading some of what's on this thread is painstaking.

Guess we’ll see in time.

 

[dieselchessy]

Did you really think you had a 25% chance with your points? 25% was percentage of tags in the NR draw, not the chance of drawing

But after reading through this thread, this is one of many mistakes and falsehoods being made. That includes some of the ridiculous statements Guy made in the article.

I have attended every Task Force meeting and spoke one on one with many of the members. There will be no recommendation by the TF to change DEA to 90/10. There will be no transferable Ranch Only tags(similar to RFW). Points for the Big 5, both res and NR are going to be changed to bonus points. PP will stay for NR DEA. There may be discussion on outfitter set-asides, but no discussion as of yet. I have my doubts it will happen. Never say never, right?

90/10, big five was a recommendation of the TF to the legislature to give more tags for these premium species to residents at the request of residents. No, not all 100% of residents wanted or cared, but a majority by a large margin were in favor. The G&F Dept played no role what so ever in supporting 90/10, although both the Director of the Dept and the Commissioner on the TF voted yes in the unanimous decision. All those saying this is a scam by the G&F are wrong. Changing to bonus is a way that every applicant has a chance. The TF was hearing how broke the system already was and is trying to give every applicant a chance with the squared bonus system. This has not reached a final vote yet.

In the end, many people are devoting a lot of time to try and facilitate change and they are well meaning people who have thoroughly discussed some controversial issues. I hope I have cleared up some misconceptions, because frankly reading some of what's on this thread is painstaking.

Please don’t do squared bonus. It’s a farce. Just ask any hunter from Washington. It just piles numbers on numbers, it doesn’t improve anything.
If you go bonus, just go plain old point for point. It won’t matter, the demand far out paces the supply, so the odds of drawing a tag will just get more and more dismal.

In Washington points are like pesos. Not worth anything. Look at our draws. The average points to draw is 10 or 11 for everything, cause that’s the average points held by folks in the draw.

 

[KINGSNAKE]

Did you really think you had a 25% chance with your points? 25% was percentage of tags in the NR draw, not the chance of drawing

But after reading through this thread, this is one of many mistakes and falsehoods being made. That includes some of the ridiculous statements Guy made in the article.

I have attended every Task Force meeting and spoke one on one with many of the members. There will be no recommendation by the TF to change DEA to 90/10. There will be no transferable Ranch Only tags(similar to RFW). Points for the Big 5, both res and NR are going to be changed to bonus points. PP will stay for NR DEA. There may be discussion on outfitter set-asides, but no discussion as of yet. I have my doubts it will happen. Never say never, right?

90/10, big five was a recommendation of the TF to the legislature to give more tags for these premium species to residents at the request of residents. No, not all 100% of residents wanted or cared, but a majority by a large margin were in favor. The G&F Dept played no role what so ever in supporting 90/10, although both the Director of the Dept and the Commissioner on the TF voted yes in the unanimous decision. All those saying this is a scam by the G&F are wrong. Changing to bonus is a way that every applicant has a chance. The TF was hearing how broke the system already was and is trying to give every applicant a chance with the squared bonus system. This has not reached a final vote yet.

In the end, many people are devoting a lot of time to try and facilitate change and they are well meaning people who have thoroughly discussed some controversial issues. I hope I have cleared up some misconceptions, because frankly reading some of what's on this thread is painstaking.

I think something like 45 thousand nr bought an antelope point. Do you really think this conversation won't be happening again in another 5 or 10 years. I would wager all of my moose points on that bet. Fyi I have 12 and they are worth nothing. I have been threatening to drop out the past four years. Also considered using them on a cow tag. That ship has sailed also. I'm not salty I saw this coming for a while. And I'm not for the bonus point system either. I only hope Idaho is taking notes right now.

 

[S.Clancy]

People make sacrifices and decisions daily that put them exactly where they are.

Elk, deer, pronghorn, sheep, etc. is NOT a rich man's sport. If you want to travel around and take advantage of other states opportunities of species that may or may not live in the area you live is up to you.

Name any other outdoor pursuit- albeit these are "non-consumptive" mountain biking is expensive as balls, skiing is expensive as balls, white water rafting is expensive as balls. Do any of them close to home and it's a helluva alot cheaper. It is NOT a rich mans sport, but to bitch and moan when a state does something in favor of its residents, frankly, its time for reality check.

Exactly. I drive 10+ yr old vehicles, left a career and went back to school while living on 8-900$ a month and worked in order to pay cash for school. I could make close to 2x what I do in MT if I chose to move to either coast. Those are the choices I made. And now I get to hunt a whole lot. Everyone's life is a consequence of their choices. Own them.

 

[Blktailhtr]

Sure wish I could sell my 20 moose points! At $150 a year and with a lot of units not getting a single non resident tag with this change I am again back in no man’s land! Tough pill to swallow for me, but it is what it is…….

im in the 20 pt boat with you. Just looked at the numbers and about 400ish people over 20 points and another 400ish with 20 points. So assuming every unit with less than 10 tags doesn't offer a NR tag it will take around 20 years to get through the people above us just to put us in the max pool for a 1 in 20ish chance to draw over 20 years. You can just about go to Alberta right now for what it will cost just in pref points and then a tag fee in WY in 20 years. And you know they will keep raising prices before then so I'm out. Burning my points for deer and elk this year and sticking with Canada and Africa from here on out.

 

[Laramie]

Yeah and those were antlerless tags and only a few people applied for each tag so I wouldnt consider those high demand not what most are looking for in a moose hunt.....so try not to paint the whole picture one color....

There was an any moose tag drawn last season with 9 points.

 

[Laramie]

Yeah and those were antlerless tags and only a few people applied for each tag so I wouldnt consider those high demand not what most are looking for in a moose hunt.....so try not to paint the whole picture one color....

There were also several any moose permits going for 1/3 to 2/3 of Max points giving most the impression, 10 years into the PP game, that moose tags would be obtainable. It appeared they were moving through the point classes in many areas. In 2011 only 2 area required the max of 15 points. Most others required around 10 while a couple took less than 10.

My point is, it wasn't obvious 10 years ago that someone starting then wouldn't have a chance. Most applicants didn't have any idea how many PP holders were even ahead of them.

 

[Lawnboi]

Humble bunch we got here!

Talk about an echo chamber, There’s a reason I don’t usually involve myself in threads like this.

I’m out of this one

 

[Archer86]

There were also several any moose permits going for 1/3 to 2/3 of Max points giving most the impression, 10 years into the PP game, that moose tags would be obtainable. It appeared they were moving through the point classes in many areas. In 2011 only 2 area required the max of 15 points. Most others required around 10 while a couple took less than 10.

My point is, it wasn't obvious 10 years ago that someone starting then wouldn't have a chance. Most applicants didn't have any idea how many PP holders were even ahead of them.

There was ZERO tags in 2011 that took the points you are quoting unless they where antlerless tags. A majority took over 10 at the time wyoming still has the 2011 draw statistics on there website if you want to take a look. It was very obvious to me that my chance would be slim and not worth the investment. Either way I don't necessarily agree with the change but at this point is it doesn't matter.

 

[go_deep]

Use to like Eastmans, but articles poorly written like this, with excessive amounts of drama to drum up clicks and traffic to their site just shows you their all about getting money by any means necessary.
I'm sure Eastmans will have a great service out shortly for $99.99 they can sell you to give you the inside scoop on how to beat the draw odds after the new 90/10 split of the big 5.

 

[Greenringer]

I can see both sides of this issue. Residents wanting more of their OIL tags makes total sense. Non-residents being frustrated at changing tag allocations is understandable. As a non-resident myself who used to apply for both sheep and moose in Wy I took it upon myself to decide if the point system was worth the investment. The first time I had to make a decision was when points went up in price from $7. I looked at the number of people in front of me and dropped out of the sheep draw, but stayed in for moose. When I heard rumblings about the 90/10 i stopped applying for the bighorns and looked into different units that I had a chance to draw. I drew a mid tier unit in 2018 and had a great hunt. As a non-resident i think we all have a responsibility to decide if the investment is worth the return. In my opinion if you have 15 or less points in WY right now you shouldn’t be too upset as your odds of drawing a tag were not good even if the allocation remained the same. It sucks when a state changes the rules in midstream, but I’ve seen it enough in the past 25 years to expect it and not get too upset over things I can’t control.

 

[wytx]

Yeah and those were antlerless tags and only a few people applied for each tag so I wouldnt consider those high demand not what most are looking for in a moose hunt.....so try not to paint the whole picture one color....

Drew my last moose bull license with 7 PP, took a bull on private land. Access was not hard to get.

td , Wyoming never guaranteed you anything when you bought PP, it is right there on the website.

 

[wapitibob]

Just an fyi, not a single nr with max or near max points even applied for a Moose last year.

The max outlay for Moose points thru 2021 was $1,570, Sheep was $1,870

 

[Rich M]

The only thing that bothers NR guys is the numbers of points/years invested and the "rules changing".

Buzz has said/implied several times that EDA are coming next. He's blunt & rough around the edges but I don't see him as a liar. If they agree to throw 50% of the NR tags to the outfitters, then the outfitters will throw whatever weight they have behind it. Ride the momentum from the 90/10 sheep moose approval and presto you have E-D-A as well.

Tie it into a declining herd and we have a perfect storm for NR hunters.

IMO, the whole thing is that the rules were changed midstream and the NR guys have to change what were probably long-term plans or maybe give up dreams.

We were always told to got to WY for antelope and CO for mule deer. Elk seemed to be a toss-up.

So, its changing. Get what you can, walk away, or continue to play the game with the new rules - knowing that they will have no issues changing the rules in the future.

 

[tdhanses]

Wyoming is at risk for a lawsuit due to the way they marketed the preference point system. There are two damning quotes out there. You are are aware as we have discussed them before.

Quoted directly from the WG&F analysis report - "A preference point system will ultimately guarantee an applicant a license."

Quoted from Brian Nesvik, Chief Game Warden - "Preference points were originally intended to provide hunters with predictability and reasonable assurance that over time, their chances of drawing high demand areas would increase. Specifically for nonresidents, they were intended to help hunters predict how often they would draw a tag for their favorite areas."

The above were intentionally made public by the WG&F as part of their marketing effort to get hunters to purchase preference points. By changing the system, the above two quotes become false.

As I'm sure you know, UDAP laws are a little different in Wyoming in that plaintiffs can't recover attorney fees. That said, I'm guessing enough people will be mad enough to try.

The last thing I want to see is the WG&F hurt by a lawsuit. What I would like to see is some form of a public message or apology and options for those who have been deceived. Let people transfer points to another species. Let guys request a refund or roll that money invested to a lifetime fishing permit... anything other than the bowl of crap we are being fed.

As a Wyoming Native who is now a non-resident, I can see both sides. I actually think 90/10 is the right thing to do for the residents of the state. The WG&F just needs to make it right with those who have invested in their false marketing scheme.

@wytx

 

[Fatcamp]

Did you really think you had a 25% chance with your points? 25% was percentage of tags in the NR draw, not the chance of drawing

But after reading through this thread, this is one of many mistakes and falsehoods being made. That includes some of the ridiculous statements Guy made in the article.

I have attended every Task Force meeting and spoke one on one with many of the members. There will be no recommendation by the TF to change DEA to 90/10. There will be no transferable Ranch Only tags(similar to RFW). Points for the Big 5, both res and NR are going to be changed to bonus points. PP will stay for NR DEA. There may be discussion on outfitter set-asides, but no discussion as of yet. I have my doubts it will happen. Never say never, right?

90/10, big five was a recommendation of the TF to the legislature to give more tags for these premium species to residents at the request of residents. No, not all 100% of residents wanted or cared, but a majority by a large margin were in favor. The G&F Dept played no role what so ever in supporting 90/10, although both the Director of the Dept and the Commissioner on the TF voted yes in the unanimous decision. All those saying this is a scam by the G&F are wrong. Changing to bonus is a way that every applicant has a chance. The TF was hearing how broke the system already was and is trying to give every applicant a chance with the squared bonus system. This has not reached a final vote yet.

In the end, many people are devoting a lot of time to try and facilitate change and they are well meaning people who have thoroughly discussed some controversial issues. I hope I have cleared up some misconceptions, because frankly reading some of what's on this thread is painstaking.

You have no idea what is going to happen down the road. These changes are incremental and will continue, definitely not to the benefit of the DIY hunter.

 

[tdhanses]

The only thing that bothers NR guys is the numbers of points/years invested and the "rules changing".

Buzz has said/implied several times that EDA are coming next. He's blunt & rough around the edges but I don't see him as a liar. If they agree to throw 50% of the NR tags to the outfitters, then the outfitters will throw whatever weight they have behind it. Ride the momentum from the 90/10 sheep moose approval and presto you have E-D-A as well.

Tie it into a declining herd and we have a perfect storm for NR hunters.

IMO, the whole thing is that the rules were changed midstream and the NR guys have to change what were probably long-term plans or maybe give up dreams.

We were always told to got to WY for antelope and CO for mule deer. Elk seemed to be a toss-up.

So, its changing. Get what you can, walk away, or continue to play the game with the new rules - knowing that they will have no issues changing the rules in the future.

I would agree, if there is one thing, he isn’t going to deceive or sugar coat it with his view/opinion of where he thinks/wants/will fight for it to go. He makes it clear he’ll do everything he can to get residents more opportunities no matter how small it is.

Now he will sway select facts to his purpose and end goal, no different then anyone else pushing an agenda.

His approach is what turns 99.9% off, little humility in life goes a long way but seems he’s done just fine being the way he is.

Truthfully I don’t dislike him or have overall any issue with him personally but I’ll still argue and disagree with him and his approach.

 

[JM77]

@tdhanses
Quoted directly from the WG&F analysis report - "A preference point system will ultimately guarantee an applicant a license."

Quoted from Brian Nesvik, Chief Game Warden - "Preference points were originally intended to provide hunters with predictability and reasonable assurance that over time, their chances of drawing high demand areas would increase. Specifically for nonresidents, they were intended to help hunters predict how often they would draw a tag for their favorite areas."

wapitibob said

"The max outlay for Moose points thru 2021 was $1,570, Sheep was $1,870"

First, the G&F Dept didn't change the system to 90/10. The TF recommended it to the legislature, who passed legislation. So I guess you can sue the State of Wyoming for your max outlay of point money.
Second, your points are still valid, if and when they change to bonus, you will get an equal amount compared to your current PP AND you get to square them!
Third, the first quote is correct and the second quote above says they were "intended", so you can throw that quote out.

@Rich M you've already asked me about DEA and you obviously don't believe what I said. On another forum Buzz said I was right. There will be no recommendation for 90/10 coming from the TF and without it, it's dead in the water.

Looking at those outlays for points reminds me of the thousands of dollars I've paid to other states and never received a tag and had them change the rules along the way. Really guys?