Wyoming Corner Hopping

[wapitibob]

You prove my point about the know-it-alls on here. Hope you filed the complaint. I don't go for corrupt LEOs. Or you coulda asked him to show you a better place to hunt. Use it to your advantage.

For the innocents reading this - corner crossing isn't the smartest thing to do until they work thru the BS associated with it. If you want to be the guy in court fighting it, have at it. And usually you can trust the local GW when he tells you he will ticket you for something, he probably will.

And exactly how is a WY game warden going to ticket someone for corner crossing?

 

[RyanT26]

I myself would not turn on the tracker. All it would do is serve as evidence to get your prosecuted.

That’s a good point. You don’t have to prove your innocence, the landowner/Sheriff/game warden would have to prove that you did not cross at the corner. If everything is upheld on the 14th. That would be a nightmare case to try to move forward.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

And exactly how is a WY game warden going to ticket someone for corner crossing?

I wouldn't be surprised if the GW's tell you not to do it simply to avoid the hassle of having a bunch of calls from angry LO's to deal with. If they can avoid the headache by saying not to do it then it's beneficial to them. There's not a whole lot of them in any state really and they're stretched so thin it's a waste of time responding to LO's complaints when they could be sitting on a chipped shed antler sting or something.

 

[Rich M]

And exactly how is a WY game warden going to ticket someone for corner crossing?

Next time im out there will get w you and see proper corner hopping techniques for NR.

Maybe you can have a corner hopping seminar day before season and also proper poaching and trespassing series since that’s all GWs seem able to enforce in your eyes.

I feel bad for the niave young guys who listen to stuff on here like it is gospel.

 

[go_deep]

 

[idelkslayer]

Regardless of whether corner hopping is finally ruled to be legal, i.e. not a criminal offense; any landowner will still be able to sue you for civil trespass. He would have to prove that you caused damage to his property but in the meantime you get to incur the costs of your defense to prove otherwise. I'm not saying it should stop you but it's just something to consider.

 

[RyanT26]

Regardless of whether corner hopping is finally ruled to be legal, i.e. not a criminal offense; any landowner will still be able to sue you for civil trespass. He would have to prove that you caused damage to his property but in the meantime you get to incur the costs of your defense to prove otherwise. I'm not saying it should stop you but it's just something to consider.

What damages would he be able to articulate to a court that he incurred by you stepping over at the corner?
A fence post was damaged? A 6 foot t-post down here in Kansas cost around six dollars w/ tax. Damage to the grass, the sagebrush, the top wire on the fence is now stretched?
You’re probably looking at $200-$250 an hour for your lawyer to take a case to court. You’re going to spend that much money to recoup pennies on the dollar, that’s if you win. You’re also taking the chance the defendant asks to have his legal fees and travel time reimbursed when they win because you have pursued ridiculous court case.
This is even assuming that there is some type of fencing. There’s a hell of a lot of corners in Wyoming that don’t have a damn thing on them.

 

[idelkslayer]

What damages would he be able to articulate to a court that he incurred by you stepping over at the corner?
A fence post was damaged? A 6 foot t-post down here in Kansas cost around six dollars w/ tax. Damage to the grass, the sagebrush, the top wire on the fence is now stretched?
You’re probably looking at $200-$250 an hour for your lawyer to take a case to court. You’re going to spend that much money to recoup pennies on the dollar, that’s if you win. You’re also taking the chance the defendant asks to have his legal fees and travel time reimbursed when they win because you have pursued ridiculous court case.
This is even assuming that there is some type of fencing. There’s a hell of a lot of corners in Wyoming that don’t have a damn thing on them.

I just don't underestimate the ability of an entitled crazy person to make my life miserable. I live next door to one. The type of person who doesn't care how much money they spend just to spite you.

I'm in the corner crossing camp, but I will be very cautious when/if the need arises to cross a corner.

 

[RyanT26]

I get it. The initial ruling that was pretty clear though. As long as nothing is overturned on the 14th it would be a fools errand.

Semerad on Wyoming Corner Crossing Case

Ryan Semerad’s opinion on the Wyoming Federal District Court’s corner crossing order.

justiceforcowboys.com

A good read from the attorney for the Missouri four. I am honestly surprised they are appealing it to the 10th. The implications are huge. After the decision, corner crossing in Wyoming is by all rights legal. If the decision is upheld in the 10th, corner crossing for all intents and purposes becomes legal in all states under the 10th’s jurisdiction.

 

[wapitibob]

Next time im out there will get w you and see proper corner hopping techniques for NR.

Maybe you can have a corner hopping seminar day before season and also proper poaching and trespassing series since that’s all GWs seem able to enforce in your eyes.

I feel bad for the niave young guys who listen to stuff on here like it is gospel.

I've actually had the conversation with the game wardens boss, as well as the local warden. When talking about corner crossing in WY it helps to know the difference between Chapter 6 and Chapter 23 violations, and who has the authority to cite. There's a reason wardens haven't written tickets for corner crossing since Pant Crank, a former A.G. issued his opinion on the matter. You may remember, the warden had no interest in writing the 4 hunters a ticket, quite simply because they didn't violate any Chapter 23 game laws.

 

[wytx]

Good grief, GWs do not write tickets for trespassing unless you are hunting that private land or your offense involves wildlife. A sheriff would have to write you up. As stated the GW did not write them any tickets, the sheriff was pressured into doing it.

The civil consequences will be determined with this appeal.

They were acquitted by a court of law of criminal trespass, the civil part will be decided on May 14th or there abouts.

Rich you probably should just stay out of Wyoming until this is adjudicated, just to be safe.

 

[wyodog]

A couple of thoughts on this that I have. at this point corner crossing is still a bit of a gray area. the hunter corner hopping at Elk Mountain had a ladder they place over the fence so that they didn't touch the fence. from what I can tell the discussion and ruling was based around who owns the air space above the corner. with that being said the landowner does own the fence. Until there is an official ruling, I think corner crossing could turn into a bad day at best. I also wonder happens if a landowner decides to build a 10" fence on corners. Hopefully this will be resolved soon. There plenty of people corner crossing in Wyoming now. It's just a matter of time until the courts will have to make a ruling that we can understand.

 

[realunlucky]

A couple of thoughts on this that I have. at this point corner crossing is still a bit of a gray area. the hunter corner hopping at Elk Mountain had a ladder they place over the fence so that they didn't touch the fence. from what I can tell the discussion and ruling was based around who owns the air space above the corner. with that being said the landowner does own the fence. Until there is an official ruling, I think corner crossing could turn into a bad day at best. I also wonder happens if a landowner decides to build a 10" fence on corners. Hopefully this will be resolved soon. There plenty of people corner crossing in Wyoming now. It's just a matter of time until the courts will have to make a ruling that we can understand.

It wasn't even a fence so...

I don't remember the ruling addressing air space at all do you have a link to the section your referencing?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Mountain_Life]

Good info here, thanks for keeping us updated!

 

[taskswap]

What damages would he be able to articulate to a court that he incurred by you stepping over at the corner?
A fence post was damaged? A 6 foot t-post down here in Kansas cost around six dollars w/ tax. Damage to the grass, the sagebrush, the top wire on the fence is now stretched?
You’re probably looking at $200-$250 an hour for your lawyer to take a case to court. You’re going to spend that much money to recoup pennies on the dollar, that’s if you win. You’re also taking the chance the defendant asks to have his legal fees and travel time reimbursed when they win because you have pursued ridiculous court case.
This is even assuming that there is some type of fencing. There’s a hell of a lot of corners in Wyoming that don’t have a damn thing on them.

Be careful. Damages don't have to be you bending a $6 fence post. The property owner could claim his time enforcing his property rights to chase you off counts as damages, the emotional "stress" or even crazy things like having to install $50,000 of new fencing to prevent you from doing it again. He doesn't have to be right to sue you.

These kinds of damages can be hard to prove, but can cover a pretty wide list of things. Here's a fun article if you're bored:

Types of Damages in a Lawsuit

In order to understand how much a potential lawsuit may be worth, a Plaintiff must first understand the types of damages that are available to them through the courts.

www.corywatson.com

There are twists here. A clever lawyer could argue that the "injured" party lost wages because they had to stand by their fence keeping you out, instead of watching over their ranch. Heaven forbid the day you did this is the day they can prove a wolf took a calf. Also, awards can exceed "actual" damages because a punitive amount may be sought as a warning to prevent you and others from doing it again. Now a $6 fence post becomes a $50k award and a case worth fighting in his mind...

This is all if he wins, of course, but don't forget that a lot of these folks have deep pockets, and if they get butt-hurt, you just might be the excitement they were looking for on a quiet Tuesday...

 

[Rich M]

Good grief, GWs do not write tickets for trespassing unless you are hunting that private land or your offense involves wildlife. A sheriff would have to write you up. As stated the GW did not write them any tickets, the sheriff was pressured into doing it.

The civil consequences will be determined with this appeal.

They were acquitted by a court of law of criminal trespass, the civil part will be decided on May 14th or there abouts.

Rich you probably should just stay out of Wyoming until this is adjudicated, just to be safe.

I drive 30+ hours or hop a plane to get there. Plan my hunts to avoid any conflict with locals or LEO.

Am gonna collect antelope pref points and maybe elk for the next 10 +/- years - then see what happens. Hope they get it figured out by then.

 

[RyanT26]

Be careful. Damages don't have to be you bending a $6 fence post. The property owner could claim his time enforcing his property rights to chase you off counts as damages, the emotional "stress" or even crazy things like having to install $50,000 of new fencing to prevent you from doing it again. He doesn't have to be right to sue you.

These kinds of damages can be hard to prove, but can cover a pretty wide list of things. Here's a fun article if you're bored:

Types of Damages in a Lawsuit

In order to understand how much a potential lawsuit may be worth, a Plaintiff must first understand the types of damages that are available to them through the courts.

www.corywatson.com

There are twists here. A clever lawyer could argue that the "injured" party lost wages because they had to stand by their fence keeping you out, instead of watching over their ranch. Heaven forbid the day you did this is the day they can prove a wolf took a calf. Also, awards can exceed "actual" damages because a punitive amount may be sought as a warning to prevent you and others from doing it again. Now a $6 fence post becomes a $50k award and a case worth fighting in his mind...

This is all if he wins, of course, but don't forget that a lot of these folks have deep pockets, and if they get butt-hurt, you just might be the excitement they were looking for on a quiet Tuesday...

I get what you’re trying to do, but it’s pure silliness. No one is requiring them to watch over the corner. The wolf and the calf, come on man. The judgment so far in this case is pretty clear. If there is a Wyoming rancher, landowner, or ranch hand that is stupid enough to spend all day parked at a corner waiting for someone to step over. I question their ability to run any type of ranching operation. We can come up with stupid arguments all day. It doesn’t change the fact that it is legal to corner cross in Wyoming. I am sure after watching a pharmaceutical multimillionaire get his ass handed to him multiple times in multiple courts. There is not going to be a huge rush of people wanting to follow suit.
The precedent is set and I’m hoping it will be reinforced by the 10th circuit.

“Through this decision, the Court held that legitimate corner crossing— "travel by foot through the checkerboard from public land to public land at corners, while never touching private land and not damaging private property, without the permission of the owners) of the adjoining private land(s)"— does not constitute civil trespass. See Appendix 1 at 2. Instead, the Court concluded that long-standing federal caselaw "allows such corner crossing by foot without trespass liability."

“In this way, the private landowner is entitled to protect privately-owned land from intrusion to the surface and privately-owned property from damage while the public is entitled to its reasonable way of passage to access public land. The private landowner must suffer the temporary incursion into a minimal portion of its airspace while the corner crosser must take pains to avoid touching private land or otherwise disturbing private property.”

 

[wyodog]

It wasn't even a fence so...

I don't remember the ruling addressing air space at all do you have a link to the section your referencing?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

I clearly stated “from what I remember” at no time did I reference a link to anything. I live in carbon county Wyoming. This topic was on the radio station, in the papers, social media etc. I am sharing am memory, which is exactly what I said in the post.

 

[Redthies]

So I’ll just say the concept of the whole “checkerboard” is ridiculous. I get why it was likely done, but surely whoever laid out the share of private and public lands like this, way back when, had personally had, or heard of the concept of shitty neighbors. To think that they could stagger sections of public land, with no direct access, except over private land is ludicrous.

Now let’s get to the “airspace” issue. I’m pretty sure hunters are not hurting anyone by going diagonally across the corners, if they are in fact at the actual corner. If they are crossing “close” to the corner, that’s not really fair. If they want to make it a realistic thing to cross corners, the corners need to be easily visible, and best if they were uniformly marked. Getting upset about someone stepping across from one square of public land to another is a bit much. I don’t enjoy random people walking on to my acreage, and I do occasionally deal with people walking my fence line on the adjacent public land, but I deal with it by throwing all my bird dogs poop along the outside of the fence (my fence is 3’ inside my property line so I don’t have to mow around a million trees). That keeps people off the three feet without any confrontations.

The whole property rights issue is never going to be cut and dried. It’s up to government to put in place laws that actually make sense, and are able to be enforced in a simple manner. It’s also not likely that any modern government is going to be able to do this either. None that I’ve seen have any balls.