Wyo Special Apps are down in #’s

[Flyjunky]

I'm betting western states could double NR elk license fees and they would still be oversubscribed.

This statement right here is why some feel hunting is going to turn into a rich man’s sport. As the price goes up and up it will knock a certain group out of hunting each time.

We focus a lot on demand, but what about supply? For example, let’s talk mule deer. How many hunters think our mule deer populations will ultimately increase or decrease going forward? Unless something changes I think the overall population trend will be less. We all know govt agencies, once they get a taste of the money, they don’t want to go backwards. If supply goes down demand goes down and then that shortfall needs to be made up elsewhere….ultimately higher prices for other species.

All I’m trying to say is we need to be smart about the future of hunting because when the main focus of those making decisions becomes money, nothing good ever comes of that. We have enough other things working against us to argue amongst ourselves.

 

[sasquatch]

Same exact boat here.

In the 11 years until I can retire and move, I have no doubt I will be able to hunt elk every year as a nonresident. I might not hunt bulls every year, but I’ll hunt elk.

But I doubt my son will be able to, either from cost or tag availability if he is a nonresident.

Nobody here is asking for $20 OTC nonresident elk tags. But the current trend is worrisome if you have and understanding and appreciation for the North American model.

Nonresident tags should cost more, and there should be more opportunity for residents vs nonresidents. But things should be priced so that your average middle class guy supporting a family can afford the tag if he makes it a priority. Above about $1200 right now is where I see that line.

Everyone posting in this thread has lived the dream of loading up the truck and heading to the mountains to chase some incredible animals. Those experiences are what makes life worthwhile. Those experiences also keep the public in tune with why conserving wildlife and public lands are important.

If we price the average person out of the game, or reduce tag availability too much, I don’t think any of us will like the 2nd or 3rd order effects in a few decades.

Tons of opportunities under $1200. I’d be more worried about waiting a lifetime in the “draw/points” line than I ever would price!

When you physically cannot get a tag, you’ll wish you could buy one somehow.

Theres only two ways this goes over time that I see. Expensive, or 3-4 tags drawn in a lifetime. I know which side I’d rather be on, and it’s not the 3-4 tags in my life span option.

Maybe, just maybe, more money will equate to more opportunities, more robust herds, better management, and more accessible lands.

Also, more and more guide welfare will kill hunting long before tag cost


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[wapitibob]

If we price the average person out of the game, or reduce tag availability too much, I don’t think any of us will like the 2nd or 3rd order effects in a few decades.

I've read posts on here ad nauseum that "we don't need more hunters."

If that's the desire, why does it matter how they get limited ?

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Tons of opportunities under $1200. I’d be more worried about waiting a lifetime in the “draw/points” line than I ever would price!

When you physically cannot get a tag, you’ll wish you could buy one somehow.

Theres only two ways this goes over time that I see. Expensive, or 3-4 tags drawn in a lifetime. I know which side I’d rather be on, and it’s not the 3-4 tags in my life span option.

Maybe, just maybe, more money will equate to more opportunities, more robust herds, better management, and more accessible lands.

Also, more and more guide welfare will kill hunting long before tag cost


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It’s natural to have a self interested perspective when looking at issues like these. We all do it, including myself at times.

That said we owe our current opportunities to people who thankfully weren’t solely self interested.

They could’ve gated it all off and kept it for themselves. Thankfully they didn’t.

I try and keep that in mind when I formulate my opinion on take allocation and cost.

 

[sasquatch]

It’s natural to have a self interested perspective when looking at issues like these. We all do it, including myself at times.

That said we owe our current opportunities to people who thankfully weren’t solely self interested.

They could’ve gated it all off and kept it for themselves. Thankfully they didn’t.

I try and keep that in mind when I formulate my opinion on take allocation and cost.

Not self interested in the perspective. It is very very simple

You can choose to find a way to pay, OR have it cheap with a long waiting line hoping to draw a tag in our life. With human population growth, habitats shrinking, and western hunting interest climbing, we CAN NOT have robust access to tags, tags be cheap, AND the hunts consists of any sort of quality. Again reference OTC options (Colorado and Utah) and how enjoyable those hunts are on average. Theres a reason this hunts are most people back up plan.

On the second note, you can’t be talking about the generations long before us leaving us robust buffalo populations to hunt, that we owe gratitude to?


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[Jaquomo]

Agree because there is something special about hunting elk in the mountains. For me antlers aren't important. Hunting every year is important.

Wyo may be reaching the ceiling for Special deer and antelope. There could not have been a straight face in the room when they put $1200 on an antelope tag.

I suspect there were a lot of smiles when their demographics study team estimated that $1200 would sell out.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Not self interested in the perspective. It is very very simple

You can choose to find a way to pay, OR have it cheap with a long waiting line hoping to draw a tag in our life. With human population growth, habitats shrinking, and western hunting interest climbing, we CAN NOT have robust access to tags, tags be cheap, AND the hunts consists of any sort of quality. Again reference OTC options (Colorado and Utah) and how enjoyable those hunts are on average. Theres a reason this hunts are most people back up plan.

On the second note, you can’t be talking about the generations long before us leaving us robust buffalo populations to hunt, that we owe gratitude to?


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Oh Jesus here we go…

I hunt one of the most popular general units in Montana on public land, and usually opening weekend. I’m willing to bet based on past experiences it’s as bad if not worse than many OTC hunts in CO.

States like Montana and Colorado manage to maximize opportunity. I’m glad they do.

When I’m on those hunts, I don’t expect to have the mountain to myself.

If that experience is important to you, wait your turn for a premium limited entry hunt or pay to hunt a private ranch. There are plenty of private ranches that will give you that experience for the right price.

Between the Meateater craze, the COVID boom, influencers, etc it’s been the perfect storm for the western hunting world with regards to demand. I think patience and prudence is in order before we make drastic changes or price increases. Further we need to be guided by some of the principles that got us here. The average person in the US, no matter where they live, probably has the best hunting opportunities in the world on average thanks to our management system and public land resources.

When we start treating wildlife like a commodity that is sold to the highest bidder rather than a public resource managed for the overall good of society, things go sideways.

We learned that lesson once, I hope we don’t have to learn it again.

 

[wapitibob]

I suspect there were a lot of smiles when their demographics study team estimated that $1200 would sell out.

Sen. Larry Hicks and Sly Gilliland came up with that $1,200 price tag along with the $2,000 one. 95% of the voting members didn't have a clue what an Elk tag costs in UT or AZ or NM.

 

[wapitipaw]

A good friend of mine applied in the Special.
He said he doesn’t have that many more elk hunts left and wants to go at every opportunity he can.

I bet we’ll all get to that point, especially if you like elk hunting.

Getting to that point already. I’ll be 50 in the nearish future. I make decent money but I’m not rich, by a mile. Enough in the checking account to pay the tax and credit card bills each month but not much more, and less disposable income than I had at 25 sometimes it seems. The special helps achieve a better chance to hunt NOW… while I can. So thats what I do. Everything has a cost.

 

[ClearCreek]

I've read posts on here ad nauseum that "we don't need more hunters."

If that's the desire, why does it matter how they get limited ?

Bob:
Now quit making sense and pointing out the contradictions here.

You know that behavior is highly frowned upon in these parts.


ClearCreek

 

[sasquatch]

Oh Jesus here we go…

I hunt one of the most popular general units in Montana on public land, and usually opening weekend. I’m willing to bet based on past experiences it’s as bad if not worse than many OTC hunts in CO.

States like Montana and Colorado manage to maximize opportunity. I’m glad they do.

When I’m on those hunts, I don’t expect to have the mountain to myself.

If that experience is important to you, wait your turn for a premium limited entry hunt or pay to hunt a private ranch. There are plenty of private ranches that will give you that experience for the right price.

Between the Meateater craze, the COVID boom, influencers, etc it’s been the perfect storm for the western hunting world with regards to demand. I think patience and prudence is in order before we make drastic changes or price increases. Further we need to be guided by some of the principles that got us here. The average person in the US, no matter where they live, probably has the best hunting opportunities in the world on average thanks to our management system and public land resources.

When we start treating wildlife like a commodity that is sold to the highest bidder rather than a public resource managed for the overall good of society, things go sideways.

We learned that lesson once, I hope we don’t have to learn it again.

Why do you have interest in Wyoming then? Just be happy on those hunts you already do?

Do you apply there? Have you hunted there? Do you want to hunt there again, for first time, or what?

I suspect you grind it out on that Montana romp and stomp as a back up? Just the way it sounds but I don’t know. However, if that’s true, it sounds to me like you want to or have hunted Wyoming for your periodic more premium hunt? That would be quite ironic if I’m even close.

Wyoming is one of the more sought out hunts for a reason. Theres people literally MOVING/Retiring there to be able to hunt it more frequently. And you/we/they are complaining about the special tag increasing, when they STILL HAVE the regular draw option!?

Wyoming has a bit of everything. Random draw? Have it. Preference point draw? Have that. Better odds Draw for a little more money? Have that too.

Also do you live in Montana? If so it’s totally diff perspective. If you do not live there, how do you enjoy the draw odds slowly decreasing live everywhere else?


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[BuckeyeRifleman]

Why do you have interest in Wyoming then? Just be happy on those hunts you already do?

Do you apply there? Have you hunted there? Do you want to hunt there again, for first time, or what?

I suspect you grind it out on that Montana romp and stomp as a back up? Just the way it sounds but I don’t know. However, if that’s true, it sounds to me like you want to or have hunted Wyoming for your periodic more premium hunt? That would be quite ironic if I’m even close.

Wyoming is one of the more sought out hunts for a reason. Theres people literally MOVING/Retiring there to be able to hunt it more frequently. And you/we/they are complaining about the special tag increasing, when they STILL HAVE the regular draw option!?

Wyoming has a bit of everything. Random draw? Have it. Preference point draw? Have that. Better odds Draw for a little more money? Have that too.

Also do you live in Montana? If so it’s totally diff perspective. If you do not live there, how do you enjoy the draw odds slowly decreasing live everywhere else?


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I’ve hunted Wyoming before and it’s my plan this year as well. I hunt Montana as a NR and it’s usually my go to. I’ve had shot opportunities every year and only came home empty handed my first year. I’ve never hunted a limited entry unit and know general units well enough I’m not sure it’s worth the effort or points. I just like to hunt through and don’t care that much about how big the antlers are.

I plan on retiring to Wyoming in a little over a decade, mainly for the outdoor opportunities.

I don’t know why you are getting so worked up. I’m just a guy who really loves to hunt elk, and I worry what the current trend means for the next generation with regards to price increases and outfitter welfare.

 

[Glockster26]

I've read posts on here ad nauseum that "we don't need more hunters."

If that's the desire, why does it matter how they get limited ?

We don’t need more! Hunters have been and always be a tiny portion of society. Another 20k people applying to Wyoming won’t change a thing.

 

[sasquatch]

I’ve hunted Wyoming before and it’s my plan this year as well. I hunt Montana as a NR and it’s usually my go to. I’ve had shot opportunities every year and only came home empty handed my first year. I’ve never hunted a limited entry unit and know general units well enough I’m not sure it’s worth the effort or points. I just like to hunt through and don’t care that much about how big the antlers are.

I plan on retiring to Wyoming in a little over a decade, mainly for the outdoor opportunities.

I don’t know why you are getting so worked up. I’m just a guy who really loves to hunt elk, and I worry what the current trend means for the next generation with regards to price increases and outfitter welfare.

I am not worked up. People just need to realize WHY Wyoming is where people want to hunt. You clearly do realize it’ has very good hunting. That good hunting is why it’s a little more costly. If not it would be equivalent to your Montana spot and you wouldn’t have your sights set on it.

Price, also is not always the demise of things.

Price, will likely be the reason the Osceola turkey down in south Florida doesn’t eventually perish. It’s the price/value it brings that may save its habitat from becoming buildings/high rises. Price, is one of the things saving African wildlife. If it did not have the value it has, the locals would have long ago killed off several species.

That’s just two examples where high value in some ways is doing good for a species.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

I am not worked up. People just need to realize WHY Wyoming is where people want to hunt. You clearly do realize it’ has very good hunting. That good hunting is why it’s a little more costly. If not it would be equivalent to your Montana spot and you wouldn’t have your sights set on it.

Price, also is not always the demise of things.

Price, will likely be the reason the Osceola turkey down in south Florida doesn’t eventually perish. It’s the price/value it brings that may save its habitat from becoming buildings/high rises. Price, is one of the things saving African wildlife. If it did not have the value it has, the locals would have long ago killed off several species.

That’s just two examples where high value in some ways is doing good for a species.

So should a Wyoming unit 100 type 1 tag cost $50k, or whatever the market value is? Should every sheep tag be an auction tag?

Nonresident elk tags are very expensive compared to nearly everything else. But there is good reason they aren’t listed at true market value.

Game managers understand, or at least understood, the why behind the North American model. I’m worried the folks making these decisions are losing that perspective.

 

[MntHunter]

They could’ve gated it all off and kept it for themselves. Thankfully they didn’t.

Is that kind of what every point system, whether intended or not, has done?

 

[sasquatch]

So should a Wyoming unit 100 type 1 tag cost $50k, or whatever the market value is? Should every sheep tag be an auction tag?

Nonresident elk tags are very expensive compared to nearly everything else. But there is good reason they aren’t listed at true market value.

Game managers understand, or at least understood, the why behind the North American model. I’m worried the folks making these decisions are losing that perspective.

Did I ever say market value?? No.

But, how many times could I reasonably expect to draw that tag? Could I ever as a NR if I started now? MAYBE I one day could with being the lucky random tag available. Seems to me, even in that ridiculous example, if I really wanted to hunt that zone in my life time, it would maybe be easier to save money for a while to come up with the 50k.

The people who drew that tag last year been waiting for 17 years!! And not all of them drew. Talk about point creep. Where will it stop? That’s way more the concern than the special cost ever will be!

If I can’t afford the 50k tag, and then I die before I ever draw waiting in the points line, is there really a difference??

The avg non resident who heads out west coming from the east will likely be getting started on those type adventures around 30yrs old. That means they will not get to hunt that area until they almost 50. Yea, I’ll bite, give me the 50k option and leave it up to me to figure out how I buy it or not. Just leave a read option also for the masses to throw their hats in too (as Wyoming already does)

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[BuckeyeRifleman]

Is that kind of what every point system, whether intended or not, has done?

One could make that argument. I’m not a fan of points systems unless it’s “apply or lose your points.”

Did I ever say market value?? No.

But, how many times could I reasonably expect to draw that tag? Could I ever as a NR if I started now? MAYBE I one day could with being the lucky random tag available. Seems to me, even in that ridiculous example, if I really wanted to hunt that zone in my life time, it would maybe be easier to save money for a while to come up with the 50k.

If I can’t afford the 50k tag, and then I die before I ever draw waiting in the points line, is there really a difference??


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First off, I think Wyoming’s point system is bullshit. The only way points systems work is “apply or lose your points.” Otherwise it’s a pyramid scheme just like it is.

Secondly I’ve hunted Wyoming general on the old special price. It’s a good tag, but it’s not a $2000 tag IMO. I’d be ok if they did away with the whole special/reguld split and just raised the price to $1200. That’s expensive, but it’s reasonable. It’s about what I pay for Montana.

Finally, you are arguing that prices need to increase to increase draw odds and reduce demand. So where does that stop? Where do we draw the line on “too expensive” if we aren’t just gonna auction everything off at market value?

 

[sasquatch]

One could make that argument. I’m not a fan of points systems unless it’s “apply or lose your points.”

First off, I think Wyoming’s point system is bullshit. The only way points systems work is “apply or lose your points.” Otherwise it’s a pyramid scheme just like it is.

Secondly I’ve hunted Wyoming general on the old special price. It’s a good tag, but it’s not a $2000 tag IMO. I’d be ok if they did away with the whole special/reguld split and just raised the price to $1200. That’s expensive, but it’s reasonable. It’s about what I pay for Montana.

Finally, you are arguing that prices need to increase to increase draw odds and reduce demand. So where does that stop? Where do we draw the line on “too expensive” if we aren’t just gonna auction everything off at market value?

2k is likely cheaper than the overall cost to move there, but you’re are doing that ain’t you? I kinda feel like once you do move, you won’t be traveling to hunt Montana anymore, hmmm.

For most people 2k is not only cheaper, it’s also more feasable than it is to move. Man, I sure hope it don’t become a thing where to hunt Wyoming, you have to move. I’ll really be screwed then for a long time.


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[BuckeyeRifleman]

2k is likely cheaper than the overall cost to move there, but you’re are doing that ain’t you? I kinda feel like once you do move, you won’t be traveling to hunt Montana anymore, hmmm.

For most people 2k is not only cheaper, it’s also more feasable than it is to move. Man, I sure hope it don’t become a thing where to hunt Wyoming, you have to move. I’ll really be screwed then for a long time.


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You are moving the goal posts and not answering the question.

Yes moving there is going to cost me money. But I also can’t hunt elk for most of the year either. Sure hunting is part of it, but most of it is just because I love the west. 10 days during elk season isn’t cutting it for me.