Would This Bother You?

[Where's Bruce?]

I’m all for killing coyotes and spend a fair amount of time sitting with a FoxPro remote in my hand while performing ADC for cattle ranchers. But this guy I know went into the desert to call predators and while hiking in saw a yote entering its den. He then went to the entrance, stuck his shotgun barrel inside and pulled a series of shots, killing the mother and her four cubs. This was not on private property or part of any animal control measures…he calls it sport hunting. To me this is not hunting and I struggle to find any ethical foundation for it. This just flat out bothered (and still bothers) me. I usually take the winter and early spring off to let the coyotes reproduce (exception to cattle ranches during calving season). No quarter is given to predators on cattle ranches ever. Large or small-kill em all. But from a sporting point of view, blasting a bunch of yotes in their den? Would this bother you? I mean, it’s completely legal. I saw the photos on his phone and found it upsetting. The pups were tiny.

 

[Mtslackcountry]

sounds pretty shitty... No sport to that

 

[missjordan]

Yeah I would have to agree it's not ethical. Not something I would ever do!

 

[cg2737]

I'm with you on this one Bruce. That's just extermination. No sport what so ever.

 

[elkguide]

I despise coyotes totally but that crosses the line for me.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

It's legal, and I don't really see a problem with it if the goal is to get rid of as many coyotes as possible. Can't say I find it sporting though.

 

[PathFinder]

It depends on why you hunt coyotes. When I'm in a dedicated coyote spot, I wouldn't do it. Most of my best coyote areas are completely devoid of big game, and I hunt the coyotes for the sport of the hunt and the bounty. Those are the spots I don't hunt from Jan-July. However, if I find a den somewhere that I hunt big game, I'm killing the pups without a second thought. At that point it's got nothing to do with "sport" or ethics, it truly is a matter of extermination. That, and bounties are paid regardless of the size of the coyote. A den with 5 pups, plus any parents killed, is 250$+. If I lived in ID I'd be a wolf denning junkie. If you want to hammer a predatory canine population, that's one great way to do it. But it's not about the "sport" if you're denning. If a guy is out denning, that's extermination, and it has its place. How different would it truly be if he'd called the mother in, and killed her "ethically", leaving the pups to die on their own?

 

[Where's Bruce?]

It depends on why you hunt coyotes. When I'm in a dedicated coyote spot, I wouldn't do it. Most of my best coyote areas are completely devoid of big game, and I hunt the coyotes for the sport of the hunt and the bounty. Those are the spots I don't hunt from Jan-July. However, if I find a den somewhere that I hunt big game, I'm killing the pups without a second thought. At that point it's got nothing to do with "sport" or ethics, it truly is a matter of extermination. That, and bounties are paid regardless of the size of the coyote. A den with 5 pups, plus any parents killed, is 250$+. If I lived in ID I'd be a wolf denning junkie. If you want to hammer a predatory canine population, that's one great way to do it. But it's not about the "sport" if you're denning. If a guy is out denning, that's extermination, and it has its place. How different would it truly be if he'd called the mother in, and killed her "ethically", leaving the pups to die on their own?

Seems we agree. I too am registered with Utah's Predator Control Program and love the countryside there but daymn your yotes are smart. They hang up at 500-600 yards like nowhere else. I have stared at em for hours through the scope of my 22-250 and they look like small wolves. Beautiful bushy coats and they are twice as big as Cali songdongs.

 

[Kevin Dill]

From a sportsman's viewpoint this is completely abhorrent to me. It has nothing to do with ethical hunting and is simply extermination. He could have done the same with a cyanide canister. That said, there are certainly situations where extermination-type killing of certain animals is desirable and appropriate...usually based on objective criteria. When emotion is the catalyst for this behavior (as in, the guy despises all coyotes and would happily hand-strangle their pups) you end up with a disgusting outcome sure to turn off a majority of hunters and 100% of those who don't hunt.

 

[LazyV]

Personally I'm not for killing animals still responsible for the feeding of their young. It's one thing to quickly and humanly as possible kill something but quiet another to let animals slowly starve to death.

 

[Marshmstr]

sounds pretty shitty... No sport to that

......+1

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Larry Bartlett wrote the following on another site, I think for many it has some truths to it:

"You might also pay attention to your personal evolution as a hunter. You will likely note elevated stages of personal growth as it (your hunter spirit) relates to the elements of pursuit that change your idealogy, reasons, and purposes for hunting.

Things like being:

Shooting driven
Success driven
Method driven
Sportsmanship driven
Conservation driven

As you pass in and out of these distinct stages of hunting personal growth, you'll begin to see other hunters "acting out" their progressively personal evolution. It is this, i believe, that helps us gain an appreciation (or respect) for other hunters. Awareness of these stages also assists we mentors in effective teaching skillsets that eventually motivate new hunters to explore these stages with both enthusiasm and awareness.

Just something to chew on while your scouting or in hot pursuit of the end goal...to eat wild meat and feel good about it."


Personally, I think that for the vast majority of us, as we grow and develop as proficient hunters, the conservation aspect (likely due to a developed respect for our prey, and wildlife in general) becomes the primary focus.

 

[Jason Snyder]

So if it were wolves instead of coyotes, would everyone still feel the same?

 

[Kevin Dill]

So if it were wolves instead of coyotes, would everyone still feel the same?

Wolves, hyenas, dingos, badgers, bears....no difference for me.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

So if it were wolves instead of coyotes, would everyone still feel the same?

Brilliant question. No...I would kill em all. Why? Yotes are everywhere already and any "one kill or den kill" is minute whereas wolves are a much newer, bigger and emerging threat. They represent a much more severe attack to the biosphere in my opinion and I feel our forefathers were right to wipe em out. I would kill every wolf I saw on sight because they have a far greater negative impact on big game popuklations than coyotes.

 

[slick]

Brilliant question. No...I would kill em all. Why? Yotes are everywhere already and any "one kill or den kill" is minute whereas wolves are a much newer, bigger and emerging threat. They represent a much more severe attack to the biosphere in my opinion and I feel our forefathers were right to wipe em out. I would kill every wolf I saw on sight because they have a far greater negative impact on big game popuklations than coyotes.

I don't think they are new at all. Bigger yes and it depends on which big game species you're talking about. Coyotes wreak havoc on antelope and deer, is it elk and moose? No. But it's still big game. Like it or not the wolves are here to stay until another paradigm shift in public opinion. Shooting into a den full of wolves would have a bigger biological impact on the species in a localized area for the time being as they do not have near the numbers (and never will), nor reproduce as effectively.

 

[PathFinder]

When it comes to big game, I'm all for ethics. That includes predators like mountain lions and bears; I have great respect for them and I have no desire to wreak havoc on their populations. We coexist well. Coyotes have a unique ability to hammer deer all year around. Their numbers and population densities alone make them a highly significant threat, especially to fawns. Our mule deer numbers are poor enough without their help, and the gloves come off when I'm in mule deer country. Same goes near antelope. In these cases, coyote hunting isn't about hunting, I want to kill as many as possible because of the positive effect it will have on the big game numbers. I really don't care how it happens. That's the way I feel about wolves. They are an illegally introduced trash animal. I'm all for denning pups, poison, and heavy aerial gunning with the singular intent of rendering them extinct from the lower 48. Eco-trash would have it otherwise, but man is a steward of the land. While we must act responsibly, we do manage for our own purposes. In some cases, that means the elimination of certain predators; it's different than hunting, and the "rules" aren't the same.

 

[slick]

When it comes to big game, I'm all for ethics. That includes predators like mountain lions and bears; I have great respect for them and I have no desire to wreak havoc on their populations. We coexist well. Coyotes have a unique ability to hammer deer all year around. Their numbers and population densities alone make them a highly significant threat, especially to fawns. Our mule deer numbers are poor enough without their help, and the gloves come off when I'm in mule deer country. Same goes near antelope. In these cases, coyote hunting isn't about hunting, I want to kill as many as possible because of the positive effect it will have on the big game numbers. I really don't care how it happens. That's the way I feel about wolves. They are an illegally introduced trash animal. I'm all for denning pups, poison, and heavy aerial gunning with the singular intent of rendering them extinct from the lower 48. Eco-trash would have it otherwise, but man is a steward of the land. While we must act responsibly, we do manage for our own purposes. In some cases, that means the elimination of certain predators; it's different than hunting, and the "rules" aren't the same.

I guess this line of thinking is hard for me to understand. Mountain lions are the most efficient predator out of the bunch and you have respect for them, but not wolves. I'm not a wolf hugging dummy, but I think they add to my experience out in the woods. Have they had an impact? sure they have. Do we need to manage them? No doubt about it.

The difference between us, is I believe there is room on the landscape for wolves. There are too many people that complain about them, but then never hunt them. Hunters are THE number one management tool when it comes to managing game populations.

Coyotes have a unique ability to produce bigger litters of pups when there is a stronger kill effort, it's almost like 2 steps forward, but 1-3 back sometimes. The wolves don't have the ability to do this- or so it's not proven scientifically yet.

 

[MontanaMarine]

I can understand it from a predator control perspective.

What seems a little strange to me is the need to photograph the carnage, to share/relate the action as 'sport'.

 

[Jonathan_S]

I live somewhere that is overly infested with coyotes. I would do the same thing. I wouldn't consider it sport hunting though.

I would do it the same way I would squash a crippled mouse in a trap.