Wolves in Colorado

[BuzzH]

The GYE elk have experienced population swings, some very dramatic, ever since the 1950's-60's. All kinds of reasons for that, just the nature of that elk population given the park, heavy hunting pressure, extreme habitat changes, extreme weather, predators, etc. etc.

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks :: Montana Statewide Elk Management Plan

History of Montana Elk Management and background information on plan creation process.

fwp.mt.gov

Check pages 203-290 specific to the Yellowstone elk herd. Note objective levels, population swings, etc.

 

[Okhotnik]

Your claim that they have "destroyed" Idaho wildlife populations made me look into some historical numbers. The following isn't at all conclusive, but here's what I found:

This link shows that elk harvests in Idaho over the last 10 years have been stable-to-increasing. Other ungulates look about the same: no obvious downward trends. Unfortunately this doesn't go prior to 2008, so we don't know what wolves were doing before then. But apparently the hundreds of wolves in Idaho have not caused a decrease in hunting opportunity in the last 10 years. Perhaps if wolf hunting and trapping were not allowed, it would be a different story.

2018 deer, elk harvests similar to 2017; above 10-year averages except mule deer

Hunters took more mule deer and fewer white-tailed deer in 2018 compared to 2017, while the elk harvest was similar between the two years -- dropping by less than 2 percent from 2017 to 2018. The 2018 elk harvest was about 15.4 percent above the 10-year average, and the overall deer harvest was...

idfg.idaho.gov

I found this paper showing Idaho elk harvest from the 1940s into the 1980s. As you can see on page 2, it goes up and down a lot - which, given the time period, presumably has nothing to do with wolves. The worst was the late 1970s, where harvest was down to some 5000 animals. If you compare the this to the link above, you'll see that the last 10 years were better than any period from 1940s to 1980s, despite the presence of hundreds of wolves now (600 - 700 according to most recent Idaho wolf management report).

https://www.wafwa.org/Documents%20and%20Settings/37/Site%20Documents/Working%20Groups/Elk%20Workshops/1984%20Edmonton%20Alberta%20Elk%20Workshop/1984%20Edmonton%20Alberta%20Elk%20Workshop/Idaho%20Elk%20Population%20Status-Depredation%20Problems.pdf

Note: the paper also says the estimated population of 1981 was 91k. In 1975, 50k. Now, 120k. Now those are just estimates, and it's possible that changing methods of estimation account for much of the difference.

But in any case, I'm not finding any evidence that wolves have "destroyed" Idaho's big game.

Of course, these are state-wide numbers. It is totally possible that elk numbers have dropped in smaller areas where wolves are more prevalent, as has been seen in Yellowstone area. I wouldn't be surprised. If anyone has numbers relevant to that question, do share.

Full disclosure: If introduction does happen in CO, I hope management is handed to the states, for hunting and trapping, as quickly as possible.

YOU ARE DREAMING if you think Colorado will allow management of wolves

Your cites are ridiculous comparing a state like Idaho to Colorado

Retry ridiculously but you and Buzzh can get a hotel room and work it out

 

[BeastOfTheTrees]

After researching as much as I can on the topics for reintroducing or not......I simply do not know.... the more I read the more I am starting to believe that wolves are play things for politicians...... 9 months ago I was completely for rewilding however now I don’t believe that is the boat I am in now.... complex issue with complex answers

 

[JeremiahG411]

Yes wolves are in Colorado, I’ve seen them when we were camping.


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[Topo_trekker]

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[Okhotnik]

Looks like your liberal Gov has a boner for wolves

Enjoy your wolves

 

[Jbehredt]

Looks like your liberal Gov has a boner for wolves

Enjoy your wolves

His husband most certainly does...

 

[Topo_trekker]

 

[pumatom]

Your claim that they have "destroyed" Idaho wildlife populations made me look into some historical numbers. The following isn't at all conclusive, but here's what I found:

This link shows that elk harvests in Idaho over the last 10 years have been stable-to-increasing. Other ungulates look about the same: no obvious downward trends. Unfortunately this doesn't go prior to 2008, so we don't know what wolves were doing before then. But apparently the hundreds of wolves in Idaho have not caused a decrease in hunting opportunity in the last 10 years. Perhaps if wolf hunting and trapping were not allowed, it would be a different story.

2018 deer, elk harvests similar to 2017; above 10-year averages except mule deer

Hunters took more mule deer and fewer white-tailed deer in 2018 compared to 2017, while the elk harvest was similar between the two years -- dropping by less than 2 percent from 2017 to 2018. The 2018 elk harvest was about 15.4 percent above the 10-year average, and the overall deer harvest was...

idfg.idaho.gov

I found this paper showing Idaho elk harvest from the 1940s into the 1980s. As you can see on page 2, it goes up and down a lot - which, given the time period, presumably has nothing to do with wolves. The worst was the late 1970s, where harvest was down to some 5000 animals. If you compare the this to the link above, you'll see that the last 10 years were better than any period from 1940s to 1980s, despite the presence of hundreds of wolves now (600 - 700 according to most recent Idaho wolf management report).

https://www.wafwa.org/Documents%20and%20Settings/37/Site%20Documents/Working%20Groups/Elk%20Workshops/1984%20Edmonton%20Alberta%20Elk%20Workshop/1984%20Edmonton%20Alberta%20Elk%20Workshop/Idaho%20Elk%20Population%20Status-Depredation%20Problems.pdf

Note: the paper also says the estimated population of 1981 was 91k. In 1975, 50k. Now, 120k. Now those are just estimates, and it's possible that changing methods of estimation account for much of the difference.

But in any case, I'm not finding any evidence that wolves have "destroyed" Idaho's big game.

Of course, these are state-wide numbers. It is totally possible that elk numbers have dropped in smaller areas where wolves are more prevalent, as has been seen in Yellowstone area. I wouldn't be surprised. If anyone has numbers relevant to that question, do share.

Full disclosure: If introduction does happen in CO, I hope management is handed to the states, for hunting and trapping, as quickly as possible.

It's true Idaho's elk population is steady.
However they have fled the national forest mountians to mainly private land.
Literally right into towns or ranches and farms
Now the fish and game dept. pays out millions of dollars to farmers for crop depredation.

 

[Bolo4u]

Hunted an area several years ago near Sheep Mountain in S/W Montana. The outfitter we stayed with told us, if we saw any wolves to "manage" them. At least once, while hiking out of a hunt, I crossed a set of wolf tracks in the snow.


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[ktowncamo]

The GYE elk have experienced population swings, some very dramatic, ever since the 1950's-60's. All kinds of reasons for that, just the nature of that elk population given the park, heavy hunting pressure, extreme habitat changes, extreme weather, predators, etc. etc.

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks :: Montana Statewide Elk Management Plan

History of Montana Elk Management and background information on plan creation process.

fwp.mt.gov

Check pages 203-290 specific to the Yellowstone elk herd. Note objective levels, population swings, etc.

Haven't read the report in it's entirety (gotta keep the nose to the grindstone) but does it mention anything regarding the appearance of a dramatic decline in the moose population post wolf introduction? Elk get a lot of the press among our crowd because of how frequent we can hunt them and our love of said hunt.

Totally armchair observation here, but I have spent a good amount of time in the Tetons over the last 20 years climbing and backpacking. Used to be able to drive through the park, including the Gros Ventre and Moose to Jackson Hole Resort areas seeing a handful of moose along the way. The last 3 times I've been in the Tetons I've seen one moose, and when asking locals there they have sung the same song....that the population of moose has been decimated by the wolves. (and I'm talking with non-hunters who I climb with in the Tetons, not yocal redneck hunter types).

If I'm an Aspen Valley, RMNP, Vail/Breckenridge citizen that supports wolves coming back into the ecosystem in Colorado, best wave goodbye to the occasional or frequent moose sighting if things play out similar to what's been experienced in Jackson, WY (IMHO)

 

[BuzzH]

Moose aren't faring well all across a lot of the West, even in States that have few wolves. Lots of reasons, one of them being predation, brain worms, habitat in older succession, etc.

Lots of research out there on the declines of moose, its not all doom and gloom, some places are doing better than others.

I killed one a few years back from the Sublette herd in Wyoming, that herd is holding its own for the most part.

No question that wolves and lions and bears all kill moose when they get the chance. From what I've read, moose numbers were declining starting in the mid 1980's, at least in Wyoming. A good friend of mine found some old moose regulations from 1975, Wyoming was issuing slightly more than 2k moose permits. By the mid 80's, the permit numbers started falling off IIRC, this year 2019, Wyoming issued 380 moose permits.

Bighorn sheep are in a similar slump, and I don't think much of it is due to predation...1975, 380 sheep permits were issued, this year 2019, less than 200.

Easy to blame one thing, but its just not reality. Habitat, management decisions, predators, disease, all play a part.

 

[Okhotnik]

Negative a court justice has to analyze then make a decision which is what they are sworn to an oath to do. Therefor they can’t only consider what one side is saying they listen to both then make a decision. Court justice also consult experts and researchers before reaching a verdict. I’m not speaking upon all court justices because I’m sure some listen more intently to research or public more but I refuse to believe that a court justice just makes a decision without doing homework upon said subject.

Ever worked in the Justice system?

I literally laughed out loud reading your response

 

[ktowncamo]

Easy to blame one thing, but its just not reality. Habitat, management decisions, predators, disease, all play a part.

I agree 100% here. It's a multitude of things and I appreciate your insights to the long terms trends. Hadn't really known that and was only speculating on what I personally had seen in relationship to the timing of wolf reintroduction.

Habitat is something that is overlooked a lot in that we all still see plenty of open spaces and think that the moose and other animals can venture there. What we don't see is the type of habitat that we are losing may be imperative to survival and thriving conditions. Case in point - I saw a mamma moose and a wee little one in a spot last week here in Utah that isn't too far from a major highway....and that mountainside is currently having infrastructure put in for over 500 homes and condos. I suspect she'll be moving on and I'm not sure where she can go now that the wetlands she likely hung out nearby will be manicured for the vacation home and permanent homes/townhomes.

Sorry to hijack the original thread about wolves....

 

[Okhotnik]

Moose aren't faring well all across a lot of the West, even in States that have few wolves. Lots of reasons, one of them being predation, brain worms, habitat in older succession, etc.

Lots of research out there on the declines of moose, its not all doom and gloom, some places are doing better than others.

I killed one a few years back from the Sublette herd in Wyoming, that herd is holding its own for the most part.

No question that wolves and lions and bears all kill moose when they get the chance. From what I've read, moose numbers were declining starting in the mid 1980's, at least in Wyoming. A good friend of mine found some old moose regulations from 1975, Wyoming was issuing slightly more than 2k moose permits. By the mid 80's, the permit numbers started falling off IIRC, this year 2019, Wyoming issued 380 moose permits.

Bighorn sheep are in a similar slump, and I don't think much of it is due to predation...1975, 380 sheep permits were issued, this year 2019, less than 200.

Easy to blame one thing, but its just not reality. Habitat, management decisions, predators, disease, all play a part.

That’s Funny because I’ve found sheep hair in wolf scat hiking up in the Missouri breaks, hiking in north central WA and in NE Oregon.

There is no discounting that wolves have devastated the moose in heaviy wolf populated areas but keep on spinning your tales.

 

[NoWiser]

I'm from MN and we have a Ton of Wolves. I've been deer hunting the last 6 years up by Luntsen, MN the NE Corner of the state about an hour drive south of the Canadian Boarder. Every Deer Season we seen Wolf Tracks and fewer Deer each Year. Hunters can NO longer Hunt Moose in our state any longer either. This past deer season I had my first Wolf Encounter I was walking out early AM to my ladder stand, it had just snowed about 6" the night prior and it was really crunchy so I was going as slow and quiet as I could to not make noise.

After my mile walk to my stand I took off my backpack and placed my rifle down against the tree and this wolf comes out off of my left running full bore right at me. He stopped 10-yards from me once he saw me (I think he heard me slowly crunching/walking in the snow) thought I was a deer approaching. We both saw each other at the same time and both went "OH-SH#T"....lol He took off and ran the same way he came in. My deer hunting buddy texted me later that he had a Wolf come by his stand about 1.5 hours later. He got cell pics of it. They send scouts out for the pack to find food and once they do, howl to get the pack in.

The Wolves have decimated our Moose population and also our Deer Herd in the Northern MN Portion as well. On the MN DNR site you can see Wolf Population Statistics since the early 1980's and it's always been from 2000 to 3000 wolves forever....A private group of 4 Biologist did their own study for 3 years strait and came up with about 13,000 to 16,000 wolves in our State. More Believable with the Hunting Community VS. MN DNR stats...Liars Wolf sightings all over our state now are more common even into Northern IA now.

We still can't touch them until they are De-listed again off the Fed Endangered Species List but we have way more Wolves now in our state than ever in it's History. They are taking Snatching Pet Dogs right off leashes in City Parks now, Broad Daylight. Maybe it will take some $1K Purse Dogs snatched or go missing in the Twin Cities Metro to get some real attention here to assist in De-Listing again.

Anybody can go to the MN DNR site and just take a look at how many Moose Calf's get killed every spring by wolves alone that were radio collard for study. Think it was like 40-50%. The Moose population can't grow and expand.

I don't want the wolf to disappear but every animal in my mind needs to be managed but when they are the TOP Predator something has to be done. They are a really neat animal to see in the wild but they need to be managed.

A pack of 5 Wolves to stay healthy and grow needs to eat 2.5 deer a week...Do the Math

Coolbeans, can you post a link to that study? I’m very interested in reading it.

I suspect there is none because almost nothing you stated in this long post is fact.

 

[BuzzH]

I agree 100% here. It's a multitude of things and I appreciate your insights to the long terms trends. Hadn't really known that and was only speculating on what I personally had seen in relationship to the timing of wolf reintroduction.

Habitat is something that is overlooked a lot in that we all still see plenty of open spaces and think that the moose and other animals can venture there. What we don't see is the type of habitat that we are losing may be imperative to survival and thriving conditions. Case in point - I saw a mamma moose and a wee little one in a spot last week here in Utah that isn't too far from a major highway....and that mountainside is currently having infrastructure put in for over 500 homes and condos. I suspect she'll be moving on and I'm not sure where she can go now that the wetlands she likely hung out nearby will be manicured for the vacation home and permanent homes/townhomes.

Sorry to hijack the original thread about wolves....

All true... there’s a misconception that as we develop wildlife habitat they will just “go somewhere else”. Not reality... less habitat equals only one thing and that’s less wildlife.

Some of the things really impacting moose are brain worms, winter ticks, and carotid artery worms. I’ve found 2 moose in Idaho and 1 in Wyoming that died from the carotid artery larvae. All died in the middle of the summer, near water, and nothing had touched them. Also took photos of one that had the larvae problem, ears were froze off a sign of limited blood flow through the carotid artery. Also lots of habitat for moose is late succession and quantities and quality of browse has declined quite dramatically, even in the snowy range in wyoming where moose have also been declining. The habitat quality is declining resulting tn cows skipping years between having calves. Lots of info out there on the moose declines in Wyoming and elsewhere. I served on the wgblc for several years on the moose committee and we approved a lot of funding to research moose in Wyoming. It’s a complex issue with lots of moving parts... as is usually the case.

 

[Beendare]

The insinuation that wolves have little effect on moose, deer and elk populations is laughable.

Are there other factors- sure.

Heres a question for these supposed experts; If you knew of these many factors as they claim, then why would they inject an uncontrolled apex predator into the equation devastating Elk and moose populations further?

One only has to Google 'Wolf populations in Yellowstone' to produce charts that show as the wolves rise the elk decline- drastically. They finally leveling off with wolf population control in effect. [note; I posted a bunch of these charts in the ELK section of this forum under a similar thread]

The arrogance of this 'Pro Wolf' crowd is a joke. They claim they know what will happen with introducing these predators into a drastically changed ecosystem that has what- 1000x the human population of the 1800's when the humans decided wolves and people don't mix.

We have seen from experience in Yellowstone and the surrounding states that there are many secondary and tertiary uncontrollable effects. The lawsuits alone extract a huge price on the states and wildlife agencies. Huge economic costs. Loss of hunting opportunities...and on and on. We saw how poorly the reintroduction in Yellowstone accounted for all of the negatives.

Make no mistake, these quasi experts claim all sorts of supposed benefits to disguise the real reason they want wolves; they think it would be "Cool."

Its the definition of insanity to make the same mistake again.

..

 

[Okhotnik]

The insinuation that wolves have little effect on moose, deer and elk populations is laughable.

Are there other factors- sure.

Heres a question for these supposed experts; If you knew of these many factors as they claim, then why would they inject an uncontrolled apex predator into the equation devastating Elk and moose populations further?

One only has to Google 'Wolf populations in Yellowstone' to produce charts that show as the wolves rise the elk decline- drastically. They finally leveling off with wolf population control in effect. [note; I posted a bunch of these charts in the ELK section of this forum under a similar thread]

The arrogance of this 'Pro Wolf' crowd is a joke. They claim they know what will happen with introducing these predators into a drastically changed ecosystem that has what- 1000x the human population of the 1800's when the humans decided wolves and people don't mix.

We have seen from experience in Yellowstone and the surrounding states that there are many secondary and tertiary uncontrollable effects. The lawsuits alone extract a huge price on the states and wildlife agencies. Huge economic costs. Loss of hunting opportunities...and on and on. We saw how poorly the reintroduction in Yellowstone accounted for all of the negatives.

Make no mistake, these quasi experts claim all sorts of supposed benefits to disguise the real reason they want wolves; they think it would be "Cool."

Its the definition of insanity to make the same mistake again.

..

Well there are lots of moving parts to the wolf equation and you lack the intellect to fully understand how wonderful wolves are

I invite to review this unbiased peer reviewed study on the positive impact of wolves . I can read it to you if you don’t understand

Tamping down the war on wolves

Wolves are in the crosshairs of trophy hunters, commercial trappers, ranchers, state and federal lawmakers, and state and federal wildlife managers in established areas of their range throughout North America. We are a counter-weight to

blog.humanesociety.org

 

[Beendare]

Well there are lots of moving parts to the wolf equation and you lack the intellect to fully understand how wonderful wolves are

I invite to review this unbiased peer reviewed study on the positive impact of wolves . I can read it to you if you don’t understand

Tamping down the war on wolves

Wolves are in the crosshairs of trophy hunters, commercial trappers, ranchers, state and federal lawmakers, and state and federal wildlife managers in established areas of their range throughout North America. We are a counter-weight to

blog.humanesociety.org

Read it to me? you can recite it by heart.

Let me guess....written and reviewed by folks like yourself the didn't have a clue of the impacts this reintroduction would cause but are so invested in this they will never admit they made a mistake. God forbid you admit you were wrong. How does it feel to see all of your prediction blown to pieces? Or are you too arrogant to consider this?

Millions of dollars and thousands of man hours have been wasted on wolves......all while the moose and ungulate populations plummet.....but the scientists invested in this reintroduction are finding a silver lining....Oh sure. /sarcasm

Thats like getting all of your political news from Rachel Maddow....peer reviewed by her editors of course.

...