WOLVES..."Do You Realize Now What You Have Done?..."

[5MilesBack]

My opinion is simple. Wolves live in wild places in the west.

Deal with it!

As we should!

SSS will only go so far. Barely even puts a dent in their population, as they are an apex predator that knows how to survive. And not only survive, but proliferate.

 

[dreamingbig]

Since when did Rokslide become so wolf friendly? Shoot the buggers and keep shooting them. Wolf supporters barely piss in the bucket of wildlife support. Their housing developments and golf courses do more damage to wildlife than they care to admit. I could care less if they want to see the wolves around. They are clueless. Here in western Washington they freak out when a coyote shows up in an urban development eating cats or a bear starts looking for an easy meal. We can't bait bears or hunt with hounds and the bear population is exploding. They reap what they show.

I will never support wolf populations. Zero is enough. I like to eat free range organic meat and will do what I can to protect that going forward!

 

[airlocksniffer]

Since when did Rokslide become a place when only one side of any issue could be discussed? Oh right, it didn't. The SSS mentality does nothing but polarize the extreme pro-wolf people.

 

[DaveC]

I too am tired.
Paying for things I do not want, or use, is against the principles this nation was founded on.
Let the tree huggers pay for the wolves and the damage they inflict.

I think your understanding of American history is not very good. Citizens have had plenty of venues and opportunities to speak and vote against predator promulgation. The majority has ruled, repeatedly. No one has to like it, but the tinfoil hat stuff does disservice to both the process and the facts.

In any case, until 2010 when federal funding took over, a trust created and administered by Defenders of Wildlife paid 1.4 million in compensation for livestock killed by wolves.

 

[Violent Hippie]

I really enjoyed the original posted article and I read every post in this thread. Thanks for all the info guys. As a hunter of primarily deer I do not support the introduction / reintroduction of wolves or any other apex predator to our lands. Why would I support importing more competition ? Doesnt seem rational from a hunters perspective unless of course someone is a full on wolf hunter who enjoys hunting wolves over all other critters . I prefer deer and elk meat.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Since when did Rokslide become so wolf friendly?

Please don't confuse objectivity with wolf friendly. Go read the Bitterroot study that Airlock posted. It and the Absaroka study are two of the best examples there are of being objective about things. If you are merely looking for circumstances and results to support your beliefs, you may very well miss the bigger underlying issues that should be addressed.

 

[dreamingbig]

Introducing an alpha predator into an ecosystem will reduce the population of deer and elk. Bottom line. It isn't the only thing that can but it doesn't help and thus I will not support it. Wolves also support the anti Hunter agenda to end hunting. This was a main driver in the wolf reintroduction.

In states such as Washington where predator management is a joke it will lead to severely reduced or closed seasons. Not to mention the dollars being spent on a mediator to try and reach agreement.

 

[Jason Snyder]

FWIW, I didn't support it either. However, that ship sailed many years ago.

I would disagree with your predictions to the future, but in the end we're both speculating.

 

[realunlucky]

Since when did Rokslide become a place when only one side of any issue could be discussed? Oh right, it didn't. The SSS mentality does nothing but polarize the extreme pro-wolf people.

That's what makes the final S so important

 

[tri2hunt]

One thing I don't understand is why the Western states are the only ones that seem to have to deal with the introduction of species? Reading through many articles in my life about animal populations, why are the wolves not being introduced in say the Adirondack mountains in New York or on the timber plantations in Georgia? Plenty of game and vacant land?? In my opinion, what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Besides, in many eastern states and within many cities where the concrete dwellers love to protect their overpopulated deer, they would love to see wolves. So why are they not being introduced in areas where there are plenty of people that want them? Like DC!!

 

[tipsntails7]

One thing I don't understand is why the Western states are the only ones that seem to have to deal with the introduction of species? Reading through many articles in my life about animal populations, why are the wolves not being introduced in say the Adirondack mountains in New York or on the timber plantations in Georgia? Plenty of game and vacant land?? In my opinion, what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Besides, in many eastern states and within many cities where the concrete dwellers love to protect their overpopulated deer, they would love to see wolves. So why are they not being introduced in areas where there are plenty of people that want them? Like DC!!

 

[Shrek]

One thing I don't understand is why the Western states are the only ones that seem to have to deal with the introduction of species? Reading through many articles in my life about animal populations, why are the wolves not being introduced in say the Adirondack mountains in New York or on the timber plantations in Georgia? Plenty of game and vacant land?? In my opinion, what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Besides, in many eastern states and within many cities where the concrete dwellers love to protect their overpopulated deer, they would love to see wolves. So why are they not being introduced in areas where there are plenty of people that want them? Like DC!!

They are introducing apex predators here. They have been quietly releasing "Florida panthers" into the Ocala/Oceola/Pinhook/Okeefenokee area for the last decade. They're having some success but locals are just as quietly killing them. Red wolves are another pet of the apex predator loving crowd but the coyotes interbreeding and filling their niche is making it all but impossible for the Red Wolf reintroduction to be successful. The total denial by the FWC / USFW that they have been releasing cats is laughable. In the justification for the Pinhook purchase the reason given was to complete the corridor from Ocala NF to the Okeefenokee so that it could support panthers. The reason I put Florida panther in quotation marks is that it is only an isolated population of plain old cougar/mountain lion. In fact the Florida population was too small and inbred to survive so USFW brought in cougars from Texas to breed the few remaining Florida panthers to. Outwardly the cats are indistinguishable from any other lion appearance or behavior. Only a few genetic markers from the isolated florida strain is what can identify them. Similar genetic differences exist in all separate geographic populations of all animals and are insignificant. The Florida panther labels only real meaning is if the cat lives in Florida and it's endangered status is a fraud.
As for why it is mostly kept on the down low is the map below and the fact that all the huntable private land has a lease value of $6.00 to $45.00+ per acre. To say that the hunting lease income is important to southern land owners and local governments would be a big understatement. That income pays much if not all of the taxes on those lands in the south.

 

[jmden]

Introducing an alpha predator into an ecosystem will reduce the population of deer and elk. Bottom line. It isn't the only thing that can but it doesn't help and thus I will not support it. Wolves also support the anti Hunter agenda to end hunting. This was a main driver in the wolf reintroduction.

In states such as Washington where predator management is a joke it will lead to severely reduced or closed seasons. Not to mention the dollars being spent on a mediator to try and reach agreement.

I largely agree with this statement. The wolf is the perfect bio-political tool of the left. It helps get the ranchers off federal grazing lands because their animals are being killed and they are losing money. It helps reduce hunting opportunity, thereby possibly reducing hunting and gun ownership, even though the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting but many folks connect the two incorrectly. So the wolf fights federal grazing, hunting and the 2nd all at once. Too many coincidences of leftist thinking.

Just because something is 'out of the bag' in no way means we should live with it happily or not fight it continually. What baloney to believe otherwise. I, for one, won't stop fighting this because of the way it was done for one. It's like saying, "Well, I know they robbed the bank. But, that was awhile ago. So, let's let bygones by bygones." That's pure baloney. Wake up. Many here will call that foolish. SO BE IT. Get a backbone and the right one.

If you want to understand something, go back to it's origins. Introducing a non-native, invasive sub-species that took out a viable population of of wolf that was already here and doing it in the manner it was done shows, only in part, that mentality and philosophy of where this came from. Who of you noble 'middle-of-the-roaders' here have shown concern for what happened to Canus lupus irremotus?

It's just like the folks in British Columbia whining about wolves being killed to try and save Woodland Caribou. The wolves are doing fine! The caribou are nearly extinct! Do they care about completely losing a sub-species of Caribou? Good grief! How do you get so warped in your thinking? The small Woodland Caribou herd in northeast Washington is now all but gone, from what I understand. Lots of wolves up there. Who's concerned about this loss? Hmmm...?

Why is it so many come to the defense of the wolf constantly? Especially among hunters?

Wolves will never be endangered worldwide. A pack of wolves is one of the most potent, efficient killing machines the world has ever seen. Like any pack of dogs, dogs kill for fun all the time--I've seen it with my own eyes. I've seen sheep killed by packs of wild dogs with not a bite taken out of them. Many similar evidences of wild and domestic animals caused by wolves. Now we have 4 to 5 times plus the original objective number of this (remember) 'non-essential, experimental' population. If it was/is non-essential and experimental why are we so overpopulated with them and have so many hunters that literally go of their way to defend them? Unbelievable.

Wolves travel great distances and proliferate at tremendous rates. Check out what Dr. Valerie Geist and Dr. Arthur Middleton say about how much of their population could be killed every year with no change of population in a given area. The number I've seen is 40% per year! And, we are worried about the poor wolf? What about the caribou, moose, elk, deer and the humans that have wolves in their back yards.

They are direct competitors with us as hunters and many hear just gloss over that as if it's not an issue. Hunting IS conservation! We do all fully understand the North American Model of Conservation, right? It depends almost totally on the hunter for funding and it is working and has worked better than anything else worldwide to provide abundant wildlife of all kinds for all, not just hunters, to enjoy. If hunting decreases, abundant wildlife decreases, under the current model anyway. And, let's hope that model doesn't morph into something else because of a reduction in hunting and hunters for various reason, too many wolves included.

 

[tri2hunt]

??

I can post a map as well. What is your point, that only State with large areas of Federally controlled land should have introduction? Maybe your mindset is why people in the Western States get tired of having the majority of lands controlled by bureaucrats that are clueless about the impacts? The whole NIMBY mentality.
Here is a map of current and historical Grey wolf range?

 

[2ski]

I really enjoyed the original posted article and I read every post in this thread. Thanks for all the info guys. As a hunter of primarily deer I do not support the introduction / reintroduction of wolves or any other apex predator to our lands. Why would I support importing more competition ? Doesnt seem rational from a hunters perspective unless of course someone is a full on wolf hunter who enjoys hunting wolves over all other critters . I prefer deer and elk meat.

There are two different perspectives. One perspective is yours. And one view of hunting is more of it as a part of natural history. Some of the biggest historical hunting heroes are also know for their naturalist views. Lots are know as "hunter and naturalist". They see hunting as a part of nature. Not trying to compete with wolves, lions and bears for game. They view hunting as a part of the conservation model.

 

[2ski]

I live an hour away. Here are some other things that often are not mentioned as contributing factors. Wolves have surely had an impact. I haven't read the entire thread, but I doubt anyone would argue that.

When wolves were introduced n 1995, the herd was at its highest recorded count in the current trend cycle. YNP and MT FWP decided the herd needed to be reduced. It was argued to what level would be targeted. Depending upon who you talked to, the target varied from 10K to 12K, a 40-50% reduction.

To get there, MT issued 2,200 cow tags for a late Jan/Feb period. That was an increase in cow tags over what had been issued prior to the "knock down the numbers" strategy. These were pregnant cows, so if you figured even a 25% calf recruitment rate for that herd, having an 80% harvest on 2,200 cow elk resulted in 1,760 cows and another 440 calves not recruited.

That went on for many years. When calls were made to reduce cow tags or stop the seasons because of plummeting numbers, increased age of cows, and low calf recruitment, it was met with resistance, mostly by hunters who enjoyed that hunt. Finally, FWP did close the late season, but it was too late. The damage was done.

Add that on top of wolves, a hard winter or two, and then have the highest density of grizzly bears in the lower 48 and a calf hardly had a chance. Bear predation is the leading cause of calf loss in the first three months of life; both black bears and grizzly bears.

To make it even worse, the MT legislature passed some laws that hammered elk even worse, In 2003, HB 42 was passed that required FWP to hammer any elk unit that was over objective according to the MT elk management plan. If you have ever seen a map of the units that are over objective, you would laugh. What we as hunters find to be over objective is not close to what politicians consider over objective. Needless to say, a lot of surrounding areas in units just north of this wintering range continued to have late cow seasons. Not sure if any of these Norther herd elk went that far north.

Most hunters who have not followed the politics or read the MT elk management plan are not aware that under the current rule of HB 42, even if every wolf, bear, and lion in MT died tomorrow, most of our elk units would not be allowed to expand, as the numbers are supposedly over the very low objectives the politicians forced us to adopt in our elk management plan. A map shows that the majority of elk units are "over objective," per the politically influenced objectives shown in that elk management plan. By law, if a unit is over objective, the most liberal season types are to be implemented with the focus on high harvest. See the map below. Anything in green or red is not allowed to increase, per the current elk management plan objectives. You will see that in the Paradise Valley north of Gardiner, only Unit 313 is below objective.

View attachment 32524

Additionally, the MT Legislature passed a required for FWP to implement an aggressive strategy for management of brucellosis in SW Montana. Two hot spots are the area where the Northern Yellowstone herd lives and west of the park where the elk migrate from YNP to the Madison Valley. To try reduce elk-cattle incidence of brucellosis, elk have been shot on the winter range every year. Yup, even at these lowest of low numbers, pregnant cows were being shot to keep them from possibly infecting cattle with brucellosis, albeit not at the high numbers as before.

The wolf surely made a difference. But, when you consider all the other pressures placed on these elk, I think a case could be made that too much hunting pressure put them in a steep decline that amplified the impact of wolves, and other predators.

A lot of moving parts to the history of that herd since wolves were introduced. Living here, watching it unfold, and seeing how the politics was as much an enemy of the elk as were the wolves, it is very refreshing to see calf numbers and total numbers starting to make some modest gains in that herd.

I'm glad you joined the discussion, Randy. I've always found you to be a very rational person on your show and podcasts. You and Renella are what is right it hunting shows.

 

[gmajor]

I don't think anyone is throwing their hands up and saying, "well it happened so we can't do anything about it now."

 

[DaveC]

Why would I support importing more competition ? .

So you can hunt in an intact as possible ecosystem with ungulates that behave like ungulates rather than livestock?

 

[tipsntails7]

I can post a map as well. What is your point, that only State with large areas of Federally controlled land should have introduction? Maybe your mindset is why people in the Western States get tired of having the majority of lands controlled by bureaucrats that are clueless about the impacts? The whole NIMBY mentality.
Here is a map of current and historical Grey wolf range?

View attachment 32566

First I don't think that any states should have introduction...I don't mind that wolves have appeared, and in not going to yell from the roof tops to kill them all. you asked a question why they are not reintroduced in the east, it's pretty simple, there is no space. Wolves need a lot of space and can travel great differences couple that with the tiny amount of public land, it's pretty simple to see, they have no where to put them.

My mindset is I'm much more worried about keeping our lands public and not letting them get sold off. Then if there may be some wolves on it.

 

[jmden]

So you can hunt in an intact as possible ecosystem with ungulates that behave like ungulates rather than livestock?

Ungulates behave like ungulates no matter what's around. They adapt as best the can to the situation, just like everything does. The so-called 'balance of nature' is very dynamic and changes constantly, so no one can really say, 'This is the way it's supposed to be." That's hogwash.