Why no compact nightforce FFP?

hereinaz

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I don’t think you will see NF offer a scope like that. They went a different direction with the NX8 and reduced weight has never been a priority.

I could maybe be convinced to get one if they made one that dialed.

I went through the thought exercise once, cause I am all for optimization of my gear. But, I personally can lose the pounds off my gut or ounces by dehydrating my wipes at home. Until then, my scope is 25 ounces. The few ounces might never be enough for me to use anything other than the 3.6-18 MK 5.

As understand it, shorter scopes create unique optical problems and are harder/more expensive to make. The shorter it is, the more lenses are needed, IIRC. I read or heard about it at Shot show when the MK5 3.6-18 and the Vudu 5-20 came out.

To get below 20 ounces, I think it’s not so much the weight of the glass, but the weight that has to be cut from the tube and internals. Simply shortening the scope isn’t an option.

To dial and be durable, I don’t know how they would do by cutting non glass weight. I know SWFA has their plain vanilla scope, so it is possible I guess.

But the other thing is demand. Most people want big glass and big magnification. I feel like it’s a niche or someone would have done it??? Someone could be the Arken/Athlon/Maven (are they going to create the market) and build their business on it.

Ultimately, if I had to get a lighter scope today, I would get one with a tree reticle that didn’t dial and use hold overs and limit myself to 500 yards, which is really inside the distance most stuff really gets shot.

My 6mm creed or 25 magnum would have good enough ballistics I would trust to hold over because I would not be too deep in the reticle. Slower cartridges would be harder for me to trust with the errors that come from holding over.

And, I could get away with a 3-9x inside 500 yards.

I have no need to get a rifle that light so far. I tested the proof of concept with the SWFA ultralight and it worked. I didn’t need the scope so I sold it.
 

Formidilosus

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But the other thing is demand. Most people want big glass and big magnification. I feel like it’s a niche or someone would have done it??? Someone could be the Arken/Athlon/Maven (are they going to create the market) and build their business on it.


This is constantly brought up as a reason “if there was a demand, someone would have already done it”… and it’s false. The shooting and hunting world is controlled by what people are told to buy, you can’t buy something that doesn’t exist.
But even that is not quite true- SWFA 3-9’s are perpetually backordered, and Athlon makes a near perfect mid range, FFP mil-mil scope that sells very well- it just doesn’t hold zero and has a circle tree reticle.


The reason companies aren’t making this mid power, mid size, FFP mil/mil scope is not because the demand isn’t there, it’s because companies, or the people that make decisions at most companies- by and large aren’t shooters and hunters. They might shoot some, and they might hunt some, but almost never both seriously.
 
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pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

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@Formidilosus not sure in your experience who you've had a chance to rub elbows with, has nightforce ever been approached about a FFP compact NXS that you are aware of?

An FFP small NXS would steal sales from their ”premier” hunting line NX8. At least one for sure, me.
Its not like their NXS are substantially cheaper than the NX8.
 

Carl Ross

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The reason companies aren’t making this mid power, mid size, FFP mil/mil scope is not because the demand isn’t there, it’s because companies, or the people that make decisions at most companies- by and large aren’t shooters and hunters. They might shoot some, and they might hunt some, but almost never both seriously.
To be fair, there aren't ALL that many people all together who do both seriously. What's nice about what's been going on here, is a few of those who fall in the intersection of that Venn diagram are actually steering some product decisions, along with educating about the why.
 

z987k

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Yes. “They” question “why”, and do not believe it will do anything that the 2.5-20x NX8 doesn’t. Same with a reticle that can be seen on low lower.
It's been a good while since I looked through an NX8, but don't they have noticeably smaller eyeboxes, especially at the upper end of the magnification?
 

hereinaz

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This is constantly brought up as a reason “if there was a demand, someone would have already done it”… and it’s false. The shooting and hunting world is controlled by what people are told to buy, you can’t buy something that doesn’t exist.
But even that is not quite true- SWFA 3-9’s are perpetually backordered, and Athlon makes a near perfect mid range, FFP mil-mil scope that sells very well- it just doesn’t hold zero and has a circle tree reticle.


The reason companies aren’t making this mid power, mid size, FFP mil/mil scope is not because the demand isn’t there, it’s because companies, or the people that make decisions at most companies- by and large aren’t shooters and hunters. They might shoot some, and they might hunt some, but almost never both seriously.

Do you think demand does exceed the SWFA 3-9 production that much?

Do you think demand would increase if hunters were educated/told to buy them over the market message?

I know I would have bought one in the past, if it had better glass clarity than the SWFAs that I shot when I first started, but that’s my preference. I just sort of shelved the idea of an ultra lightweight build for myself. I didn’t even care about zero stops and such.

I don’t know enough to disagree. I do know the companies push what they sell and push what is easy to sell. Maybe I am wrong and there is enough demand if NF did it.

Anyone have any idea what it would take to have a Japanese OEM just copy the out of patent SWFA design (cause it works) and use better glass? Or, use whatever is working in Trijicon’s scopes if not patented? It’s not the lenses as much as the gears and knobs.

Be an interesting idea for someone smarter than me. Seeing Athlon, Tracy, and Arken spring up does make me think the capacity is out there. I don’t have deep pockets to buy an MOQ, but what if I could be convinced with hard numbers? I would consider partnering up on it or doing a Kickstarter type preorder to fund it. I would only do a tried and true design, I don’t need to get cute with anything or redesign SWFA. It could be reverse engineered if necessary. With manufacturing, it’s the specs and quality to put out a basic scope that meets the Rokslide must have check list. I could run it by some deep pocket friends…

I know people who are outsourcing products, and you just have to find the factory. Arken and Tract didn’t build a factory.

Would be something that could be crowdfunded by something like Kickstarter?

How many would do a preorder if the work was done and assurances made of the quality?

Maybe that is a good question. It would be curious to see if the demand is high enough in total to support the lower numbers of customers that would buy through a crowdfunded effort. Although, as a manufacturer I don’t like the preorder fiasco like it always is… even though I love a couple things I bought on preorder.
 
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pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

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Yes. “They” question “why”, and do not believe it will do anything that the 2.5-20x NX8 doesn’t. Same with a reticle that can be seen on low lower.

Why do they even make the 2.5-10x42 nxs then if no one cares the rest of the scopes are 40+% heavier? OBVIOUSLY someone there realizes half a pound on a hunting rifle matters to some, did that person burn up their influence when it came to a FFP version? Lol
 

Formidilosus

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Do you think demand does exceed the SWFA 3-9 production that much?

Do you think demand would increase if hunters were educated/told to buy them over the market message?


You don’t need to tell or convince people- still Leupold most bought scopes are mid power models. AR recce gun users are screaming for the same type of scopes. The Leupold 2-10x Mark5 is an example.
The demand is there, the issue is that companies aren’t nearly as educated and knowledgeable as people believe. When you have people making decisions that don’t do the thing they sell, you get people that are no different than the “average” customer- shorter, more mag, more features, “glass”, and higher zoom range; they don’t grasp why anyone would want a 4-16x lighter weight and bombproof scope with usable reticle “when they can have a 4-32x scope with 190mph wind holds at 2,200m”….

The entire industry is built around the “just copy what everyone else is doing” model.


I know I would have bought one in the past, if it had better glass clarity than the SWFAs that I shot when I first started, but that’s my preference. I just sort of shelved the idea of an ultra lightweight build for myself. I didn’t even care about zero stops and such.

The HD models have much better glass. There isn’t much difference between the 3-9x SWFA and NF 2.5-10x.



Anyone have any idea what it would take to have a Japanese OEM just copy the out of patent SWFA design (cause it works) and use better glass? Or, use whatever is working in Trijicon’s scopes if not patented? It’s not the lenses as much as the gears and knobs.

Yes, it’s been looked at by multiple people. It’s very difficult to get in conversation with LOW about it, and the required minimum “experience” of scopes sold and years selling scopes to get in, all but mandates Chinese or Philippine manufacture to begin with.
 

Shortschaf

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To be fair.. how many people would not have this nonexistant 2.5-10 FFP scope at 10x anyway for 200+ yard shots
 
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pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

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To be fair.. how many people would not have this nonexistant 2.5-10 FFP scope at 10x anyway for 200+ yard shots
Are you trying to say SFP is okay cause you’ll be 10x? To answer your question I likely wouldn’t, the smaller field of view and narrower eyebox on max zoom aren’t ideal for staying on target. I want to be able to accurately use the reticle on any magnification.
 

Formidilosus

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Why do they even make the 2.5-10x42 nxs then if no one cares the rest of the scopes are 40+% heavier? OBVIOUSLY someone there realizes half a pound on a hunting rifle matters to some, did that person burn up their influence when it came to a FFP version? Lol


This is what they think-

To be fair.. how many people would not have this nonexistant 2.5-10 FFP scope at 10x anyway for 200+ yard shots
 

z987k

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To be fair.. how many people would not have this nonexistant 2.5-10 FFP scope at 10x anyway for 200+ yard shots
The rifle I hunt with the most has a 4.5-14 on it. It's almost always on 4.5x. Like I can't even remember taking a shot on an animal at 14x. People think they need all this magnification because they're shooting at paper and trying to see bullet holes on paper at 100-200yards. Put an animal the size of a deer, elk or moose at 100 yards and use the 14x. You won't even be able to see the whole animal.

I'm rather convinced 3-9 or 2.5-10 is still the ideal hunting scope for people shooting at animals at ranges the vast majority of people actually shoot at animals. 9x is fine for shooting at deer at 500y.
 
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Shortschaf

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This is what they think-
Probably exactly what the pitch sounds like.
Are you trying to say SFP is okay cause you’ll be 10x? To answer your question I likely wouldn’t, the smaller field of view and narrower eyebox on max zoom aren’t ideal for staying on target. I want to be able to accurately use the reticle on any magnification.
No, it wasn't meant to digress into "SFP vs FFP". I meant it genuinely as a "how do others use a scope in that situation".

Either way it was unintentionally off topic to this thread
 
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pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

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Probably exactly what the pitch sounds like.

No, it wasn't meant to digress into "SFP vs FFP". I meant it genuinely as a "how do others use a scope in that situation".

Either way it was unintentionally off topic to this thread
It’s all good. I tend to shoot animals at 6-8x if I zoom in (I just zoom sone without looking at the number). This is with 3-12 and 4-16 scopes on my guns currently.
 
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pods8 (Rugged Stitching)

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For those wanting a NF 2.5-10 in FFP, Trijicon makes something close - https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/cr1036-c-2900038
It's got a mil tree that's quite busy though.
Yeah we touched on it earlier. 32 objective and 3oz heavier than the NXS 2.5-10x42, and a hideous reticle. Makes me either want to see what the revamped 3-9x42 swfa is like if it ever comes out… or settle for the sfp nightforce. The reality is that sfp on the nightforce has me leaning towards spending less money on the swfa vs saving/spending more than double for the nightforce but it would be appealing if it was a rock solid ffp at 20oz.
 
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