What is holding you back from competitive shooting?

[Lawnboi]

If there is another way to add stress to a shot, similar to shooting at an animal, that doesn't involve shooting on a clock in front of your peers in situations not determined by yourself I’m all ears.

 

[Ope]

You think you need to compete to still be a good long range shot on game?

Nobody said you HAVE to do comps to be good. But the fact remains those that do compete become BETTER. Not just because it's practice, but it's stress induced practice against unknown variables (strangers instead of just yourself or buddies, unknown course because it's not your backyard).

well my trophy phase was in archery but same shizzo applies, I guess lets see their walls compared to Jim Shockey's walls would be the fastest way to confirm what I was saying, the bowhunting world was where I was heavy when I was in trophy phase and there was one guy I could think of that competed and killed pretty well combined, Levi Morgan but 3 guys that he will never touch in his lifetime for hunting that never competed in anything, Chuck Adams, Archie Nesbitt and Tim Wells, hell one of them is a better shot on game than the rest of them and doesn't even use sights, they did their own thing and as was stated that guys high level at both will be the norm? no...guys will be high level at one or the other is the norm, rare are those who are high level at both, so that's not the majority as was alluded nor was competition against other people is the best way to become a better shooter...maybe for competing against other people

Being a more accomplished hunter doesn't make someone a better shot that's nonsense. There's more to hunting than just shooting.

Jim Shockey's wall wouldn't prove anything except he has more kills, that doesn't translate to better shooter. If a guy had 100 hunts and only bagged 20 and threw them on his wall, vs the guy who had 15 hunts and put 15 on his wall your saying the guy with 20 is the better shot because he has more mounts? See how ridiculous that sounds?

as was stated that guys high level at both will be the norm? no...guys will be high level at one or the other is the norm, rare are those who are high level at both, so that's not the majority as was alluded nor was competition against other people is the best way to become a better shooter...maybe for competing against other people

Where did anyone state that was the norm? The consensus was competition helps improve skill that translates over to hunting like building shot positions, getting settled and getting the shot off against the clock while dealing with stress. How does this not translate to hunting? Unless your hunting over bait I've not known for an animal to let you take all day to get set up.

'can be useful for many, if that works for your brain' or something lol

Have you ever competed? Again, is your whole argument based on your conjecture of the "legends"?

Prove me wrong, compete for a year and tell me how it didn't help.

Edited to clarify and stay on thread topic: Time keeps me from attending more competions. But I wish I could because it's really beneficial.

 

[david2duck]

I thought this was a thread on why guys aren’t attending matches more?

 

[isocyanate]

but it's stress induced practice against unknown variables (strangers instead of just yourself or buddies, unknown course because it's not your backyard).

This. Also shows you what a 600+ yard unknown distance shot at a live target really means. On the clock, one shot for record, no sighters. Hit or miss move on. There’s not many shooters in meatspace that have the dope to make those shots. Just on the internet.

It does apply.

I’ve shot a lot of rounds way farther, but my confidence from almost any supported position is REALLY high inside 400, and I wouldn’t be there without the comp experience.

 

[CApighunter]

Weekend availability. I typically work 60+ hours between Friday morning and Monday night. Getting a Saturday/Sunday off is pretty much off the table without a couple months advance notice and burning vacation time.

 

[Wapiti1]

Time and distance for PRS or other hunting style sort of type matches. I've shot other competition matches with handguns, and rifles, but not that type of match.

Although, I really think it would be fun to shoot a PRS match with my Savage 99 .308. Just for the hell of it.

I do find the comments about not wanting to or not competing with others really interesting. What do you think you are doing when you hunt public land for big game?

Jeremy

 

[Macintosh]

I compete in local prs and nrl22+ matches about 6-8 times per year. I went to a “practice day” on invitation from a friend when I was unsuccessful finding a rifle
Range longer then 200 yards. Another friend asked me to partner in a new shooter/seasoned shooter match. Without those two things I likely would not have gone. The barriers for me or others ive talked to were (in no perticular order)
1) NO place to practice. There is literally no range open to me within several hours to practice at ranges more than 275 yards. Including public land where shooting is legal. Too much woods, no commercial ranges. I was just out in Casper, Wyoming for a hunt and went to a public range to zero rifles, that range was among the nicest I have ever been to. There is nothing even remotely like that within many hours of me, and definitely nothing that requires dialing a cf rifle. It's pretty tough when the matches themselves are your ONLY opportunity to practice outside of dry-fire.
2) equipment barrier— I basically had to drop amost three grand to get a basic rifle to even start going to matches or practicing for a match. I make a good living, but that kind of cash usually goes to other priorities. I ponied up, but it hurt. If I had not been able to borrow a rifle for the new shooter/seasoned shooter match, I probably would not have bought a rifle, which means I probably would never have started competing. Thats even before ammo…
3) There is no opportunity to practice before going to a match. I think a lot of people would love to try shooting match-type positions and targets, without the cost or stress of a match. It’s really not that hard, but none of the clubs or ranges I know of ever hold a practice day where you can get dope out to longer range and try some stages off the clock in a informal setting.
4) Crowds. Most of the local matches are several hours away, not well publicised, and registration fills up months in advance. There are definitely more people who want to shoot matches than there is room for them, so if you aren’t planning well ahead, you simply lose out.
5) assholes—it seems like competitions breed them. Sometimes its even the md’s. Plenty of great folks but one loudmouth with no time for a newbie ruins it for a lot of people, and it seems theres one at every match. Matches ought to strictly enforce sportsmanship in same way and dq some of the jerseyed shooters for pressuring others if they want more participation from newcomers. I dont actually think thats what most want.
6) there is no legit off the shelf/hunter/base class. The existing one is a joke. If you want it to be a class for people who dont own a match rifle, then make it a legit hunter class—9lb weight limit incl scope, unmodded factory rifle and scope 15x or less and $2k or less combined, stages that can be shot competitively with bdl bottom metal rather than a 10-round dbm, etc.
7) shooters gaming everything—its incredibly annoying, a waste of my time, and counter to why Im there. “The stage description didn’t specifically say that I couldn’t do this so I’m gonna spend the next 15 minutes of everyone’s time getting 3 tripods and a volkswagon-sized bag all set up so that I can find a way around this position that everyone else has to use”. minimal equipment (1 bag, etc) and all equipment carried and set up on the clock, including ranging, etc. except for new shooters. Its a game of skill, not a game of having specific equipment for every scenario and practicing it twice before shooting it.

Anyway, it can be a lot of fun, but im not at all surprised that very few new folks show up at matches. The 22 matches are probably better and more fun simply because more people have a place to practice, can afford it, etc. I’ve never been to an NRL hunter match, I don’t think there’s anything within 12 hours of me so that just aint happenin.

edit: also, even though the matches don't at all translate to hunting scenarios I've seen, and there are very, very few situations I've been in where those skills made the difference in harvesting an animal or not, I definitely feel that the confidence and general familiarity with the gun and positional shooting transfers to any shooting activity, including hunting. I am definitely a better shooter for doing matches, including in hunting scenarios.

 

[Travis Bertrand]

Because you will progress significantly faster in those things if you compete.






15lb rifles? If that were the case, you could compete with your hunting rifle. Most legit comp rifles for PRS are over 25lbs.

I will say I feel a momentum shift into lighter rifles. There are top shooters now shooting lighter rifles and still winning. NRL HUNTER I think is the cause of this. guys in open heavy don't really have an advantage over open light. That is now making its way to PRS style matches.

 

[Travis Bertrand]

For those in Colorado, Nick @HawkinsPrecision has a big hand in matches around the Springs. They also do a lot of their communication on a well run Facebook group that is easy to find. I would have no reservations in getting started due to persnickety other competitors or feeling out of place, etc. I would have no issue pointing anyone I know towards them and know they would be treated well and in good hands.

Nick is a good dude!

 

[sndmn11]

This. Also shows you what a 600+ yard unknown distance shot at a live target really means. On the clock, one shot for record, no sighters. Hit or miss move on. There’s not many shooters in meatspace that have the dope to make those shots. Just on the internet.

It does apply.

I’ve shot a lot of rounds way farther, but my confidence from almost any supported position is REALLY high inside 400, and I wouldn’t be there without the comp experience.

I am ignorant as I have not completed or attended a match. However, I have read numerous times people talking strategy on the Facebook page I mentioned before, and it seems the majority dump a shot off target intentionally to read the splash when the timer starts. That method of doping doesn't seem productive for a hunter.

 

[Formidilosus]

Sounds gross to many but hey if you dig it, go for it. You'll maybe get better than other people at whatever that task is. Irrelevant for a hunter who competes against himself and live animals. The rarity is those who are top competitive shooters AND killers combined.

How do you know this to be true? What is your competition experience?

The norm is pick a horse and get to the top for you, the most successful deadliest hunters will likely never have competed against anyone in a match setting. That's life, it's not gonna change. Levi Morgan will never equal a Chuck Adams, Archie Nesbitt or Tim Wells afield. One of them shoots high level against people AND is deadly afield (that's the rarity) but all three who've never shot match will destroy Levi afield.

How do you know this to be true?

You get stuck shooting matches against people too much and you'll be taking away from things you could be doing to improve your chances of putting meat in the freezer and horns on the wall.

Like what things? Please be specific.

Ya, were you beside them afield? How's their walls and freezers compared to the shooting match competitors? Both disciplines can give you trophies lol.

Actually, yes. I see between 30-50 big game animals a year taken, almost all by those same people.

No my statement was correct. Wanna get better at something do more of it, if you wanna get better at competing against others in a shooting match then do so. But you can get really good at shooting on game and hunting by doing all the same work outside of a match setting on shooting and more time hunting.

And you know this because of what experience competing?

Placing bullets isn't the hard part,

Actually, hitting is the hard part and where most fail.

but it is much harder when it's a live animal for the majority, very common for those who's pressure, whole different ball game on the animal with one tag, one chance...not spot the first one, take a measure then send another...like the animal is going to stick around on your face up lol.

Well I’m killing multiples of hundreds of game animals, and seeing thousands killed by others, I would say that second round corrections are very important and nearly as important of a skill as first round hits past 300’ish yards. Past 500’ish second round corrections done quickly is more important that first round hit ability. Or at least that is what has shown up in those animals killed.

No, as said before our brains are visually/spatially wired, you won't be taking a first one and then measuring the miss and doing it again on animals...

How do you know this? I don’t generally miss- I’ve missed twice in the last 60-70 animals; but I people do miss and in over 90% of cases they get a second shot. For someone that is trained correctly, they will spot their own impact/miss, correct and send another round as fast or faster than a spotter could could call it.

your brain already has the next hold figured, no measuring needed but if you're trained to do that you'll lose time if you flub the first on and try to measure on a critter that's now moving away, will you be confused, what to do now? I could go on and on.

Ok- go on. What is your experience of using a calibrated FFP reticle (specifically mil) on animals and targets at speed?

We can all run the same gear and learn the same methods of the day. A shat ton of it is useless for hunting, you said so yourself that very rare is the guy who consistently kills past 600 so whatever is going on beyond that is marginal if not detrimental to the killers focus in both setup, gear and practice.

I never said that it’s “marginal if not detrimental to the killers focus” beyond 600. Most people, regardless of equipment, do not have enough knowledge, skill, or ability to be taking shots on animals past 450’ish yards in broken terrain- that’s factually true. That has nothing to with what is the best “setup, gear and practice”. That can only be determined by shooting and tracking performance differences in hit rates and time to hit between techniques in large data sets…. Generally called competition.

Competing against people can work against you in prep for hunting as the focus is in the wrong place. It's a well known phenomenon, range pro's fall apart afield, killers fall apart at a match.

Actually that’s not we’ll known at all. That is an excuse that people who don’t perform when measured objectively use- “ya, well if it was real, I would have totally dominated”. What had proven out repeatedly in every single study and research project measuring stress and ability is that there is no “magic” ability to perform above someone’s baseline under stress. In other words- if you can’t do it consistently on a range, you can not do it consistently “for real”.

Competition has always been irrelevant and unnecessary for hunters, long range or not. The deadliest people have never come from it.

The highlighted part is so laughably false, it boggles the mind as the information is not hard to find. Point in fact, historically the best units in war (read most effective) very often had high levels of competitive background, or outright demanded their members to compete. All of the data collected over the last decade since it has been really measured and looked at has found a direct correlation between someone’s on demand shooting skills, and their performance under stress. So much so that an entire branch of the US armed forces has completely rewritten their marksmanship doctrine.

 

[Formidilosus]

I am ignorant as I have not completed or attended a match. However, I have read numerous times people talking strategy on the Facebook page I mentioned before, and it seems the majority dump a shot off target intentionally to read the splash when the timer starts. That method of doping doesn't seem productive for a hunter.

It’s done sometimes, but the winners aren’t doing it. And, it’s an artifact of the reality that the matches aren’t setup to mimic or measure field shooting skills.

 

[Rob5589]

I did it for a few years and it was expensive back then. Couldn't imagine it now as expensive as components are. If you get truly serious and competitive, it is a significant expense. It is a great time though and I learned a ton from some top shooters at the time.

 

[HOT ROD]

I was interest in shooting a match or two since there are two here in Wyoming this year... Was planning on shooting the factory division but my rifles dont meet factory specs and dont meet the power factor... Than I did more research and found these are 3 day matches now we are burning vacation time with all this it adds up pretty quickly... Plan is to now get into nrl 22 match right here not as expensive no vacation burned...

 

[EastCoaster]

I used to shoot a lot of long range matches……the gaming aspect and time/expense began to wear on me. Made some great friends during those years though. Also, learned a ton about myself and my abilities.

 

[MallardSX2]

Most competitive target shooters are strange people. Just an obvious observation I have seen over the years.

And I don't hang out with weirdo's...

 

[Novahunter]

Because you will progress significantly faster in those things if you compete.

This is why I shoot PRS matches. I'm a much better shooter under pressure now, than before I started competing. I also know how to better utilize structures around me to get stable. I hunt with a small and light bag, or a game changer with Git Lite.

Matches in their current form are not analogous to hunting conditions, but many skills do transfer.

 

[MaraviaDave]

If hunters could figure out a way to use their Lead Sleds at positional field matches. I think you’d see a lot more involvement.

 

[dirtytough]

There are a few reasons for why I don’t do it. This would be for NRL hunter comps.

1. I would want to be competitive. To be competitive I would need a new rifle, scope, bipod, gamer bags, gamer plate, pillows, rangefinding binos, scope mountable timer, etc.

2. It’s not hard to fill a tag. It is hard to fill the average tag with a quality animal. I haven’t missed out on a quality animal because I couldn’t shoot fast enough or accurate enough. I have missed out because I couldn’t find one though.

3. The gaming. Having your rifle weigh so much you can’t use a bipod. But it’s fine to carry unlimited gaming bags in a pack.

I believe matches would help most hunters become better shots. If becoming a more successful hunter is the goal, does spending time and money on matches help more? Or does spending time and money on scouting help more? Or does spending time and money on the actual hunt help more?

For me personally I’m going to be more successful hunting a quality animal if I can actually find one. Is shooting a match going to help me find a quality animal scouting or during the hunt? I doubt it.

 

[yycyak]

This screams of the guys who say "Bro, jiu jitsu does nothing in a street fight. If things go down in the streets, pain train coming for you! Cause street rules, bro. Jiu jitsu does nothing for me."

It's been proven false, over and over and over.

I believe the expression is "Legend in their own mind" ...

Sounds gross to many but hey if you dig it, go for it. You'll maybe get better than other people at whatever that task is. Irrelevant for a hunter who competes against himself and live animals. The rarity is those who are top competitive shooters AND killers combined. The norm is pick a horse and get to the top for you, the most successful deadliest hunters will likely never have competed against anyone in a match setting. That's life, it's not gonna change. Levi Morgan will never equal a Chuck Adams, Archie Nesbitt or Tim Wells afield. One of them shoots high level against people AND is deadly afield (that's the rarity) but all three who've never shot match will destroy Levi afield. You get stuck shooting matches against people too much and you'll be taking away from things you could be doing to improve your chances of putting meat in the freezer and horns on the wall. I only use this example as my trophy phase was when I was hardcore archery so I knew some players there no different what tool you use. The deadliest of those guys doesn't even use sights but I digress...all three of them figured out their game from pure hunting drive/focus. They would never have become that if competitive shooters. Rare are those who are top at both. Most land good at one or the other.

Ya, were you beside them afield? How's their walls and freezers compared to the shooting match competitors? Both disciplines can give you trophies lol.

No my statement was correct. Wanna get better at something do more of it, if you wanna get better at competing against others in a shooting match then do so. But you can get really good at shooting on game and hunting by doing all the same work outside of a match setting on shooting and more time hunting. Placing bullets isn't the hard part, but it is much harder when it's a live animal for the majority, very common for those who's pressure, whole different ball game on the animal with one tag, one chance...not spot the first one, take a measure then send another...like the animal is going to stick around on your face up lol. No, as said before our brains are visually/spatially wired, you won't be taking a first one and then measuring the miss and doing it again on animals...your brain already has the next hold figured, no measuring needed but if you're trained to do that you'll lose time if you flub the first on and try to measure on a critter that's now moving away, will you be confused, what to do now? I could go on and on. We can all run the same gear and learn the same methods of the day. A shat ton of it is useless for hunting, you said so yourself that very rare is the guy who consistently kills past 600 so whatever is going on beyond that is marginal if not detrimental to the killers focus in both setup, gear and practice. Competing against people can work against you in prep for hunting as the focus is in the wrong place. It's a well known phenomenon, range pro's fall apart afield, killers fall apart at a match.

Competition has always been irrelevant and unnecessary for hunters, long range or not. The deadliest people have never come from it.