What does it take to kill a grizzly?

[ElPollo]

What is your experience level to be such a expert? How many grizzly, brown bears , mountain sheep, moose, elk , caribou, Cape buffalo, leopards have you killed, hunting on your own or with a guide? How many career brown bear and grizzly guides have you hunted with to make the above statements? How many guided hunts have you been on, many of the above game animals listed require a guide unless you are a resident. How many career Rocky Mtn states biologists, game managers, wardens call you a friend and that you have hunted with?

I’m kind of enjoying your indignant answers here. Where exactly do wildlife biologists, or game managers, wardens, or guides get training on ballistics? Is this OJT? Is there coursework involved? How many animals do you think your average wildlife biologist or guide kills per year. Is the number of animals killed the measure of someone’s ballistic knowledge? Please enlighten us?

 

[MtnW]

I’m kind of enjoying your indignant answers here. Where exactly do wildlife biologists, or game managers, wardens, or guides get training on ballistics? Is this OJT? Is there coursework involved? How many animals do you think your average wildlife biologist or guide kills per year. Is the number of animals killed the measure of someone’s ballistic knowledge? Please enlighten us?

Don’t know where you grew up ,but it sure doesn’t sound like the Rocky Mtn West where shooting guns is part of your life experience from age 5. Many of these wildlife professionals you are insulting are 3rd generation Montana, Wyoming , Idaho, Washington, B.C., Alberta, AK natives who have more gun,hunting,and ballistics experiences than the internet keyboard experts hat shoot only paper. It’s called in the FIELD EXPERIENCE, and actual hunting experience.
Your comment about “guides” also shows your inexperience too! Many guides have been involved in 100’s if not close to 300+ grizzly/brown bear kills in their lifetime careers . Coursework? REALLY, Coursework on killing grizzly bears?? You live in a different world than I do thank God.

 

[ElPollo]

Don’t know where you grew up ,but it sure doesn’t sound like the Rocky Mtn West where shooting guns is part of your life experience from age 5. Many of these wildlife professionals you are insulting are 3rd generation Montana, Wyoming , Idaho, Washington, B.C., Alberta, AK natives who have more gun,hunting,and ballistics experiences than the internet keyboard experts hat shoot only paper. It’s called in the FIELD EXPERIENCE, and actual hunting experience.
Your comment about “guides” also shows your inexperience too! Many guides have been involved in 100’s if not close to 300+ grizzly/brown bear kills in their lifetime careers . Coursework? REALLY, Coursework on killing grizzly bears?? You live in a different world than I do thank God.

First, where exactly did I insult wildlife professionals? Please go back and read my post again and quote it directly.

Second, why do you think doing something that same way over and over again automatically makes you smarter? You don’t learn by doing if you don’t take time to collect information from what you did, and critically evaluate that information and adjust what you do base on that information. Learning is about questioning, experimenting, and sharing what you’ve learned. I’d don’t see any evidence that you are doing any of that. Instead you appear to be complaining about someone else doing that and casting doubt on their information without providing any of your own.

But perhaps I’m wrong. What is your experience? Are you a biologist or a guide? What’s your actual grizzly body count? How many rounds do you shoot per year in practice and how many animals do you kill and see killed in an average year? What information and observations do you take from that vast experience? And please share with us your knowledge of ballistics and how bullets actually wound and kill. Provide the evidence, not just things you think or feel. If you don’t have evidence about things you think or feel, by all means, go forth and get it and tell us what you find. We will wait patiently.

And by the way, I am a wildlife biologist and have made my living doing that continuously for over 30 years.

 

[Thegman]

Maybe there's a couple of things being conflated here.

Many big game guides have lots of experience on kills, but generally with rifles in a fairly limited range, say typically from 7mm to 375. They know those work, and may know fairly well how well they work.

Now, if you asked the same guides about using a 6mm or .224 bullet on an elk, moose, grizzly, etc, they'd very likely reply "WTF, are you kidding?". Not because they have used these and seen them fail, but because they've never used them and have no knowledge about using them on the same.

I think that's essentially what is being said. Knowing about one set of things does not necessarily impart knowledge about another set of things one has never used, nor seen used.

 

[MtnW]

What I find B.S. is the lack of ANY experience by the so called internet hunting forum experts who are relying on “course work” and have never even been on a grizzly/brown bear hunt, let alone killed one, telling the uninformed how to go about hunting the great bears. It’s comical . And ELPOLLO I take it you are a “bird” (wildlife biologist) not a Ursidae or Ungulate biologist. And that you, like Formidilusus have never been on a grizzly/brown bear hunt in your life. And that you like formidilosus have little to zero guided big game hunting experience with a master guide where a guide is required to hunt ? And that you like Formidilusus have maybe one or two Rocky Mtn Western hunts? And you have no experience in / Alaska/ Yukon/BC/NWT where the grizzly brown bears live. But you do have “course work” thus you guys are experts but you have zero real life experiences ?? Now I get it.

 

[Formidilosus]

What is your experience level to be such a expert?

Expert? Please quote where I have ever made that statement.

How many grizzly, brown bears , mountain sheep, moose, elk , caribou, Cape buffalo, leopards have you killed, hunting on your own or with a guide?

What do mountain sheep, moose, elk caribou, Cape buffalo, and leopards have to do with what it takes to kill a bear? How does hunting with a guide make one more knowledgeable?

How many career brown bear and grizzly guides have you hunted with to make the above statements?

What statement exactly are you referring to?

How many guided hunts have you been on,

How does how many guided hunts I’ve been on change anything that was stated?

many of the above game animals listed require a guide unless you are a resident. How many career Rocky Mtn states biologists, game managers, wardens call you a friend and that you have hunted with?

If a Rocky Mountain state’s biologist, game manager or warden calls me a friend, that means that what I wrote is true? And if they don’t- it means what I wrote isn’t?


Fallacy much?

 

[Formidilosus]

What I find B.S. is the lack of ANY experience by the so called internet hunting forum experts who are relying on “course work”

How did you come to that conclusion?

and have never even been on a grizzly/brown bear hunt, let alone killed one, telling the uninformed how to go about hunting the great bears. It’s comical .

Can you quote exactly where I or anyone stated “how to hunt the great bears”?

And ELPOLLO I take it you are a “bird” (wildlife biologist) not a Ursidae or Ungulate biologist.

Because you don’t like what he wrote, you assume he’s a bird biologist? And somehow you believe that is relevant to what is being discussed?

And that you, like Formidilusus have never been on a grizzly/brown bear hunt in your life.

How does going or not going in a guided grizzly hunt have anything to do with whether wildlife officers have education, and/or deep knowledge about terminal ballistics and shooting, or shooting skill?
Or whether Guides go through training or education on ballistics, or are generally shooters themselves, and how much technical knowledge they have about guns in general?

And that you like formidilosus have little to zero guided big game hunting experience with a master guide where a guide is required to hunt ?

Again, how does that have anything to do with what is written? And, what is your fixation on hunting with a guide?

And that you like Formidilusus have maybe one or two Rocky Mtn Western hunts?

I’m sure that you have more experience in Rocky Mountain western hunts.
How does that have anything I do with whether wildlife officers, guides, etc have technical understanding in general about terminal ballistics or high level shooting skill?

And you have no experience in / Alaska/ Yukon/BC/NWT where the grizzly brown bears live.

How did you come to that conclusion?

But you do have “course work” thus you guys are experts but you have zero real life experiences ?? Now I get it.

Again, how did you come to this conclusion?

 

[MtnW]

Not sure why you consider yourself a authority on so many subjects related to hunting. Because if one reads your reply’s in your posts it is Blatantly obvious you have done very little big game hunting,you have limited or no knowledge of various states/province’s available game and hunting seasons or requirements, your lengthy elk hunting story has more drama combined in your one hunt than my last 20 elk hunts combined, for trying to be a hunting forum influencer/internet expert you have only 1 or 2 photos of your big game hunts , even after several attempts trying to explain guided hunts to you , you are unable to grasp the concept that certain animals can only be hunted with a licensed guide in many states and province’s , since you can only be a resident of ONE STATE, and Canada is a all together different program, you give advice on brown bear and grizzly hunting but where are your pics of the ears you killed? I think you are as El Pollo said full of “course work” not real life hunting experiences. It’s pretty clear to me you are rather young,with little actual experience. Others can form their own opinions. I am just refuting much of what you proclaim to be, I am not out to be a professional influencer or make 3000 posts. .I have adventure traveled and hunted my entire life, my passion is spending time in the Yukon . I respond to these hunting forums when I disagree with the hunting forum influencers Just calling out what I consider from my hunting and life experiences to be a large amount of unsubstantiated statements from you. I think you are over your skis and your real experiences are a fraction of what you claim to be.

 

[Formidilosus]

Not sure why you consider yourself a authority on so many subjects related to hunting.

I consider myself an authority?

Though, as you haven’t answered a single question so far, we both know you won’t and can’t answer this.

Because if one reads your reply’s in your posts it is Blatantly obvious you have done very little big game hunting,

Is that so?

you have limited or no knowledge of various states/province’s available game and hunting seasons or requirements,

And you came to that conclusion how?

your lengthy elk hunting story has more drama combined in your one hunt than my last 20 elk hunts combined,

Ok? Your point?

My 20 elk hunts were last year, when were yours?

for trying to be a hunting forum influencer/internet expert

You don’t read much, do you?

you have only 1 or 2 photos of your big game hunts ,

Haha.

even after several attempts trying to explain guided hunts to you , you are unable to grasp the concept that certain animals can only be hunted with a licensed guide in many states and province’s ,

Ignoring the fact that it is completely nonsensical for this thread regardless- you haven’t explained a single thing about guided hunts.

since you can only be a resident of ONE STATE, and Canada is a all together different program, you give advice on brown bear and grizzly hunting

So not only do you use galaxies nonstop, you also lie?

but where are your pics of the ears you killed?

Haven’t killed too many ears.

I think you are as El Pollo said full of “course work” not real life hunting experiences. It’s pretty clear to me you are rather young,with little actual experience.

Ok.

Others can form their own opinions. I am just refuting much of what you proclaim to be,

Can you quote these posts of me proclaiming to be anything?

I am not out to be a professional influencer or make 3000 posts. .I have adventure traveled and hunted my entire life, my passion is spending time in the Yukon .

My passion is tapestry.

I respond to these hunting forums when I disagree with the hunting forum influencers Just calling out what I consider from my hunting and life experiences

You have certainly wowed me with the regaling of your “experiences” so far.

to be a large amount of unsubstantiated statements from you. I think you are over your skis and your real experiences are a fraction of what you claim to be.

What have I claimed exactly? It’s not hard- being that you have read so much, you should know.

 

[MtnW]

I don’t give advice on topics I have no experience on, and I am annoyed by others who attempt to.
Especially on hunting animals that can kill you.
Good luck if you ever get a chance to actually be in mtn grizzly or coastal brown bear country and run into the wrong sow grizzly in a bad mood with a pair of 75 lb cubs , or stumble upon a big 600 lb boar sleeping on his kill at 10-15 yards with your little .223 and your fixed 10X scope. You know it all, preach to your uniformed followers.Or you take a shot and wound a grizzly with your inadequate/marginal cartridge, for someone else to deal with . Wih your lack of knowledge and inexperience I am sure you have never even thought of that. Maybe your little .224 80 grain bullet, 800 yard ballistics expertise , and your course work will save your ass . Good luck with that.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t give advice on topics I have no experience on, and I am annoyed by others who attempt to.
Especially on hunting animals that can kill you.
Good luck if you ever get a chance to actually be in mtn grizzly or coastal brown bear country and run into the wrong sow grizzly in a bad mood with a pair of 75 lb cubs

Bears are scary. I’ll probably be terrified if I ever see a sow grizzly in a bad mood with 75lb cubs.


Give or take.

, or stumble upon a big 600 lb boar sleeping on his kill at 10-15 yards with your little .223 and your fixed 10X scope. You know it all, preach to your uniformed followers.Or you take a shot and wound a grizzly with your inadequate/marginal cartridge, for someone else to deal with . Wih your lack of knowledge and inexperience I am sure you have never even thought of that. Maybe your little .224 80 grain bullet, 800 yard ballistics expertise , and your course work will save your ass . Good luck with that.

So, I guess you won’t actually answer a single question then?

 

[MtnW]

Again your reply is just another example of your inexperience. I have never conversed with a experienced outfitter, trapper, biologist, gold prospector, who live and work in grizzly country, who ever nonchalantly comments like you just did about surprising a mature sow grizzly with cubs! Your sarcastic comments “bears are scarey”, “I’ll probably be terrified”, are part of my reasoning in calling you out.
I am not the one trying to influence anyone and become a Internet personality. I am just calling B.S. on trying to influence uninformed people about grizzly/brown bears with a .223 and there being no potential consequences in doing so.
In your old photo , Where is your .223 and your fixed 10X scope? Oh, no rifle and not actually hunting.
Again your imagination? I see a single 125-150 lb bear. Not a aggressive mature sow grizzly with two 75 lb cubs that you just invaded their space. Obviously you do not understand the difference. Let’s see some real hunting pics with your .223 and your fixed 10X scope.Tell us more about your grizzly experiences, hunts, encounters and how to hunt grizzly and brown bears with a .223. Many are now wanting to know more !
And pics of your 20 elk hunts from last year, please.

 

[Formidilosus]

Again your reply is just another example of your inexperience. I have never conversed with a experienced outfitter, trapper, biologist, who live and work in grizzly country ever

You’ve never conversed with an outfitter, trapper, biologist, who live and work in grizzly country?

Though once again, you have avoided answering a single question.

Where is your .223 and your fixed 10X scope? Oh, no rifle and not actually hunting.
Again your imagination? I see a single 125-150 lb bear. Not a aggressive mature sow grizzly with two 75 lb cubs.

What you “see” is about as much as what you “know”.

Let’s see some real hunting pics with your .223 and your fixed 10X scope.
And pics of your 20 elk hunts from last year

If only you had read what I post as you claim to, you wouldn’t need to ask for them now.

There’s only a few dozen here, though like everything else you won’t actually read anything-
https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

 

[Grisha]

Only have one grizzly kill but 308, 199 gr hammers broadside pretty much dropped my boar on the spot.

 

[willtim]

I have no dog in this fight but, why do brown bear guides carry .416 RM's and not .223's? And, as soon as you shoot your .375 H&H they immediately follow up with an anchor shot?

 

[Turkeytider]

There has been such a focus on bears in the .223 thread I thought I’d start a thread on what I think it takes to actually kill a bear. I am not a guide, other people have killed more bears then me. But I have killed lots of black bears, I mentored other hunters to their first bear, and I’ve killed two grizzlies solo. I’ve done this with everything from a .375 Ruger down to a .308 shooting low recoil youth loads that put it more in the category of a 6.5 Grendal.

First, I don’t care if someone brain shot a bear with a .22 rifle. That is a cool story but I don’t know anyone who wants to limit themselves to brain shots only while bear hunting. Here is what needs to happen to kill a bear reliably in a hunting situation that could turn into a self defense situation if a bear charges after being hit.

On a broadside shot a bullet needs to punch through the ribs and the lungs. If it exits that is nice but not totally necessary. Form has covered this idea in the Shoot2Hunt podcast. Its not unusual for a bullet to stop just under the skin because the skin acts like a trampoline. In other words, if your bullet stops just under the skin after going through 20 inches of one bear, it doesn’t mean the bullet will stop after going through 20 inches of a bigger bear. On a bigger bear it might go through more then 20 inches of vitals and stop under the skin.

On a quartering too shot, the bullet needs to go through a bit more muscle and maybe, a shoulder bone. Scapulas are not big deal. A brown bear’s arm bone is not huge like a bovine. If my memory is correct my 8 foot grizzly had about a 1.5 inch bone, maybe less. It was definitely less then a moose shoulder bone and probably equal to an elk, maybe less (I have never killed an elk but I have looked at elk skeletons). My only interest in breaking bones is that in some situations a bullet needs to go through a shoulder to get to the vitals. The idea of “breaking a bear down” with a shoulder hit is silly. I’ve seen bears run away very fast with a smashed shoulder.

In a head on charge situation, you want a bullet that is able to punch through a bear’s skill to hit the brain. Again, a bear’s skull is not bullet proof. If a bullet can’t make it through a bear’s skull its probably not a bullet you should be hunting with anyway. Maybe a huge grizzly has a thicker skull but the skulls I’ve seen wouldn’t stop a normal hunting bullet that could also go through a rib cage or shoulder bone of a bear or elk.

I have seen various theories on the internet about “hydrostatic shock” with the idea being if I hit an animal with a big caliber bullet or a fast enough bullet it will drop instantly. Form has quoted academic articles arguing that hydrostatic shock is a myth. I can’t speak to that but I have never seen a bear drop instantly with anything other than a brain shot. All we know for sure is that animals die when they bleed enough or their CNS is disrupted. So unless we are taking brain shots we want to make a big hole in a bear’s chest, and then get ready to shoot it again if necessary.

So to summarize, a brown bear killing bullet is nothing magical. It needs to punch through roughly the same amount of meat and bone as a bullet for elk or moose. After that, it needs to create a wide enough wound channel to quickly deprive the brain of oxygen.

Now the part we can argue about...
If I recall, it has been agreed by people like Form that a .223 does make a smaller hole than a .308 or 6.5 with an equivalent bullet. The argument in the .223 thread is that the bigger wounds of the bigger calibers don’t translate to quicker killing in deer or elk. I would argue that if a .223 can reliably kill elk it could reliably kill brown bears. But “reliably killing” might still involve animals running a bit after being hit. Not a big deal with an elk. With bears it can lead people to freak out a bit.

In summary, I think the one area where the jury is still out is whether a bear might die a bit faster if hit with a bigger bullet that creates a bigger hole draining more blood faster. In other words, maybe a .308 would be worth a bit more blast and recoil compared to a .223. I don’t know. I haven’t had the chance to try a .223 or a .308 with really destructive bullets.

I love my . 223 s but it wouldn’t be the first thing I’d reach for if I thought I might encounter a brown bear/ grizzly, much less hunting one on purpose. Don’t think it’ll ever happen for me since I have absolutely no desire to shoot an animal like that. Just me.

 

[Turkeytider]

I have no dog in this fight but, why do brown bear guides carry .416 RM's and not .223's? And, as soon as you shoot your .375 H&H they immediately follow up with an anchor shot?

“ why do brown bear guides carry .416 RMs and not .223s? “ . Probably because they don’t want to end up like the Glass character in the Revenant due to a pissed off, wounded bear.

 

[ElPollo]

What I find B.S. is the lack of ANY experience by the so called internet hunting forum experts who are relying on “course work” and have never even been on a grizzly/brown bear hunt, let alone killed one, telling the uninformed how to go about hunting the great bears. It’s comical . And ELPOLLO I take it you are a “bird” (wildlife biologist) not a Ursidae or Ungulate biologist. And that you, like Formidilusus have never been on a grizzly/brown bear hunt in your life. And that you like formidilosus have little to zero guided big game hunting experience with a master guide where a guide is required to hunt ? And that you like Formidilusus have maybe one or two Rocky Mtn Western hunts? And you have no experience in / Alaska/ Yukon/BC/NWT where the grizzly brown bears live. But you do have “course work” thus you guys are experts but you have zero real life experiences ?? Now I get it.

So I’ll take that as a no on the whole direct experience thing.

 

[MtnW]

I lived in Gallatin County MT when I was younger up into m 20’s. I would see grizzly’s frequently on my hikes to fly fish. One of my friends was a elk biologist in the Pintler/Anaconda Wilderness range. No one talked about it, but hundreds of grizzlies were killed in he dumps of Yellowstone Park in the late 70’s due to the over population .There were a lot of grizzly bears. I have made 10 trips hunting into the Yukon, including a 12 day dedicated grizzly hunt floating the Yukon river. I’ve spent 100 days hunting in northern BC . I’ve hunted 30 days in the Mackenzie Mtns of he NWT. I have no problem with anyone killing a bear. My brother just recently killed a bear , he loves to hunt them. I chose several years ago to not kill another bear. In my hunting career I have shared camps and hunted with elders, younger guides of the Kluane Nation and the Kutenai tribes including a Kutenai chief. In these hunts sharing camps and hunting I had the privilege to learn and understand the spiritual meaning of the bear to the indigenous people. The bear is considered the grandpa to the indigenous people. While the true practicing indigenous people are not against killing bears they have a special ritual when they do kill one. They will not kill a fish eating bear but instead a fall berry fed bear. We had a experience moose hunting in a canoe in the Yukon where we surprised a medium size sow wih two 75 lb cubs at about 30 yards. That sow let out the most blood curdling sound and her jaws popping wanting to kill us. Fortunately the water was to deep from the shore to our canoe or we would have had three grizzlies on top of us, I can still hear the sound the sow made on her charge, and the 75 lb cubs tried to get at us too snarling and making god evil sounds trying to reach our canoe. The last Mtn grizzly I had a opportunity to kill was on a dall sheep in theYukon. We found where the bear had been living in a giant alder tangle. We jumped him about 20 minutes later when he was out feeding on rock squirrels , he was magnificent ,the largest Mtn grizzly I had ever seen , a old bear. I had a spiritual feeling and I never hunted bears again after that hunt although I have been around grizzlies yearly. I know a little bit about bears. I have only hunted Mtn grizzlies , only been around coastal brown bears while fishing. In my experiences I find the Mtn grizzly way more aggressive than the salmon fed coastal bears. When I hunted and killed bears I was usually on a mixed bag hunt and I used a .300 mag of some persuasion using 180 or 200 grain Nosler partitions . if I was on a dedicated grizzly hunt I used my Dakota 76 in .340 WEA with 250 grain Nosler partitions. Never in mine ,my hunting partners , or the outfitters we hunted with wildest dreams would we ever consider using on purpose a .223 to hunt grizzly bear, too many variables and too many things can happen. A wounded grizzly would be a vicious and formidable adversary.

 

[ElPollo]

I lived in Gallatin County MT when I was younger up into m 20’s. I would see grizzly’s frequently on my hikes to fly fish. One of my friends was an elk biologist in the Pintler/Anaconda Wilderness range. No one talked about it, but hundreds of grizzlies were killed in he dumps of Yellowstone Park in the late 70’s due to the over population .There were a lot of grizzly bears. I have made 10 trips hunting into the Yukon, including a 12 day dedicated grizzly hunt floating the Yukon river. I’ve spent 100 days hunting in northern BC . I’ve hunted 30 days in the Mackenzie Mtns of he NWT. I have no problem with anyone killing a bear. My brother just recently killed a bear , he loves to hunt them. I chose several years ago to not kill another bear. In my hunting career I have shared camps and hunted with elders, younger guides of the Kluane Nation and the Kutenai tribes including a Kutenai chief. In these hunts sharing camps and hunting I had the privilege to learn and understand the spiritual meaning of the bear to the indigenous people. The bear is considered the grandpa to the indigenous people. While the true practicing indigenous people are not against killing bears they have a special ritual when they do kill one. They will not kill a fish eating bear but instead a fall berry fed bear. We had a experience moose hunting in a canoe in the Yukon where we surprised a medium size sow wih two 75 lb cubs at about 30 yards. That sow let out the most blood curdling sound and her jaws popping wanting to kill us. Fortunately the water was to deep from the shore to our canoe or we would have had three grizzlies on top of us, I can still hear the sound the sow made on her charge, and the 75 lb cubs tried to get at us too snarling and making god evil sounds trying to reach our canoe. The last Mtn grizzly I had a opportunity to kill was on a dall sheep in theYukon. We found where the bear had been living in a giant alder tangle. We jumped him about 20 minutes later when he was out feeding on rock squirrels , he was magnificent ,the largest Mtn grizzly I had ever seen , a old bear. I had a spiritual feeling and I never hunted bears again after that hunt although I have been around grizzlies yearly. I know a little bit about bears. I have only hunted Mtn grizzlies , only been around coastal brown bears while fishing. In my experiences I find the Mtn grizzly way more aggressive than the salmon fed coastal bears. When I hunted and killed bears I was usually on a mixed bag hunt and I used a .300 mag of some persuasion using 180 or 200 grain Nosler partitions . if I was on a dedicated grizzly hunt I used my Dakota 76 in .340 WEA with 250 grain Nosler partitions. Never in mine ,my hunting partners , or the outfitters we hunted with wildest dreams would we ever consider using on purpose a .223 to hunt grizzly bear, too many variables and too many things can happen. A wounded grizzly would be a vicious and formidable adversary.

So that’s still a no on the grizzly bear body count. Your brother killed a bear and it sounds like you weren’t present for it. And you’ve paid some guides to take you out to see animals. I can see where you might be a ballistics expert.

I my intention is not to bait you here. It’s to point out that we should all be realistic about our experiences and what we know and don’t know. You have three choices when it comes to using a place like this. You can read, learn and ask questions, you can share experiences with others, or you can be the person who spreads hyperbole, dogma, and attacks people who do the other things… Oh wait, there’s a 4th. You can be a meme master who mocks people who follow choice #3. But you get to be who ever you want to be.

I chimed in because you made an argument that biologists are somehow ballistics experts. I don’t profess to be one and I don’t know any other biologist who is one. Your assumption that people who shoot and hunt a lot must be ballistics experts is demonstrably false. It’s a skill and a knowledge base that you have to acquire. It’s not something that happens through osmosis. Plenty of people shoot stacks of animals the way their granddaddy did and never ask questions or learn from it. The whole point of the OP here was to question what we think we know about what it takes to kill big bears.

I don’t interpret Form’s comments or those of others here as being insulting to biologists. It’s a fair point that many or most of us make decisions about ballistics based on what we have heard from others without ever questioning or testing it. We are no different than anyone else in that sense. Someone else brought up the choices biologists make about guns and ballistics as an appeal to authority, and no biologist worth his or her salt would be comfortable with that. If you argue that I or anyone else is not a “real biologist”, I would counter by asking how would you know?