What does it take to kill a grizzly?

[Luke S]

Details on the grizzly

• First shot through the chest took out one lung and "bruised" the other. Apparently it was filling with blood according to a medical friend who looked at my pictures. It also punched through one side of the heart. This shot was at a downward angle. Engrance and exit holes were about 1.5 to 2 inches. Similar to what a .358 did to several black bears. The holes through the lungs were smaller, maybe .75 inches. Again, my medical friend points out that the lungs probably shrank up as they deflated to the hole in the live bear might have been bigger.
• One follow up through the brush was a miss, another nicked the hind leg
• The final follow up angled in through the stomach behind the ribs and stopped in the heart. We found a section of jacket there.

The bear ran maybe 50 yards and piled up. My son is convinced the last shot dropped it. I'm not sure, I think it was about to drop one way or the other and that might be why it slowed down enough for the final shot I took.

Overall I was perfectly happy with my .308 on a grizzly. Now to be fair, a 6 foot grizzly is nothing huge, I shot a black bear that was a similar size. But your average interior grizzly probably won't be bigger enough to matter. I'd still like to take apart a 10 footer and see how much difference there is in bone size, etc.

But my .308 with match bullets did similar damage to my old .358 with premium bullets while being easier to source ammo/reloading stuff for and giving me longer range.

My nurse practitioner friend said he doubted a bigger hole in the lungs would kill an animal (or person) much faster in his experience. He said the only thing would be that a really small hole might seal up as the skin moved around and that would slow the inevitable death as the lungs collapsed. So yes a FMJ bullet might be slower to kill with a lung shot. But, once there is a hole in the lungs/chest cavity that doesn't seal, nothing lives long.

 

[Lando]

6.5 cm dropped in his tracks. 8’8 brown

bear and a boone and crockett skull

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Which bullet in the 6.5 CM did you use?

 

[jdub17]

The real answer is whatever you think is necessary. For me that's a 7 rem mag.

 

[Hunter270Win]

For me, I’d just use my .270. I doubt there’s anything it can’t take in NA.

 

[rickyw]

I just took a grizzly this week. 1 shot with a 165 grain SST going 2983 fps at the muzzle. 30-06. The heart and most of the lungs (80%) were completely obliterated. 85 yards.

 

[JDBAK]

That’s fair about guides. What about the AK wildlife troopers? The guys the NPS rangers called to sort out the bears that consumed Mr Treadwell and his friend in the National Park. Also inexperienced and unprepared with inadequate shooting skills? I think they like 12ga. Brenneke slugs. Those kick like a bitch too.

I wouldn’t assume that most guides or wildlife troopers are particularly good or experienced shooters. Or have much exposure to truly good shooters.
Most won’t know what they don’t know, regardless of their profession.

 

[6mm Remington]

Here's my 2019 Brooks Range grizzly bear. My guide is posing with him. I shot him one time at 158 yards broadside as he was feeding. Tight behind the shoulder crease and through the lungs. Rifle was a 280AI shooting my handload of a 140 gr. Nosler Accubond at 3186 fps at the muzzle. He spun 180 degrees into the shot, did two summersaults and was dead. Never moved or twitched after that. The bullet expanded nicely and exited behind the shoulder on the opposite side. He was a 7 1/2' bear.

 

[Trees91]

H&H is back at it.

 

[JDBAK]

I should clarify, it’s not that guides are inexperienced, unprepared, or have inadequate shooting skills. But that experience as a guide or wildlife agent, as valuable as it is, doesn’t make it much more likely to even be aware of what a guy like Form can do with a Tikka 223, or a Ben Stoeger or Matt Pranka or Kyle Defoe can do with a Glock 9mm or 5.55 AR.

Example, I’ve been dabbling with USPSA for 20 yrs. In only the last couple years I learned there are people applying doubles on 2-5 MOA targets (prone) at 100 yds with stock M4s….1 sight picture, as fast as the trigger can be pulled, working faster than the shooter can aim subsequent shots.
These guys are shooting sub .2 second splits And punching out upper A Zones way past 25 yds standing with duty guns, no compensators, stock triggers, no gas tuning, full power ammo.
That redefines what’s possible to me, and changes my training focus.
Think that might be a useful skill and tools for a charging bear?

 

[ramblinman]

I wouldn’t assume that most guides or wildlife troopers are particularly good or experienced shooters. Or have much exposure to truly good shooters.
Most won’t know what they don’t know, regardless of their profession.

Bingo. How much experience does the trooper out of Kotz have killing bears?

But according to fudd lore he’s an expert.

Whereas the average family in the NW is killing 3-4 a season. The 6.5 is starting to replace the venerable 22-250 and 243.

But some guy shot one with a guide once with a 338 and he’s an expert.

22wmr will not reliably penetrate a bear skull so minimum is 223 and 55gr fmj in my world

 

[Mangata]

The fellow I met who was a federal wildlife employee who takes care of wounded and problem bears in Alaska used a 375 H&H until upgrading to 416 Rem. The Safeway grocery store on Kodiak has 375 H&H, 416, and 458 on the shelf. Lol

Kodiak Safeway does not sell ammunition BTW…

 

[TaperPin]

Kodiak Safeway does not sell ammunition BTW…

It did when I lived there. I won’t plan on it going forward

 

[gbflyer]

Ok, are a couple of you guys saying guides and wildlife officers basically don’t know what they are doing either in bear stopping scenarios but IPSC and the like shooters do? Weird. I’ve always thought of those two things as a somewhat honorable profession that require a certain amount of experience and training. Of course I may be missing the point, written word isn’t my long suit.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ok, are a couple of you guys saying guides and wildlife officers basically don’t know what they are doing either in bear stopping scenarios but IPSC and the like shooters do? Weird. I’ve always thought of those two things as a somewhat honorable profession that require a certain amount of experience and training. Of course I may be missing the point, written word isn’t my long suit.

There is nothing about wildlife officers that requires education, and/or teaches anything about terminal ballistics and shooting knowledge or skill beyond the extreme rote basics. Guides do not go through training or education on ballistics, nor are they generally shooters themselves, and rarely know much of anything technical about guns. Lots- maybe most; are ranch hands, cowboys, fisherman, etc that are part time guides. Guides are paid to babysit hunters, find animals, help the hunter get on the animal, then take care of the animal and pack it out.


High level IPSC/USPSA shooters generally won’t know anything about animals, but they do know shooting at a level that is inconceivable to guides/police/hunters.


Learn to find animals from guides, learn to shoot handguns from high level USPSA competitors.

 

[Luke S]

I'm not convinced a smaller rifle was better 30 years ago with the bullet technologyof that time. I'm not sure how things were back then. But my 308 worked on one grizzly. My old 375 Ruger with a Nosler Partition probably wouldn't have made a bigger hole. So I think it's worth reviewing.
1. If "shock" or "hydrostatic shock" is not a fact (as Form as cited articles about) then all we are doing is punching holes
2. With Nosler Partitions my 375 makes a bigger hole than my 308 (old way). But with the ELDX or ELDM my 308 makes holes as wide as my 375 and it penetrated enough to exit a 6 ft grizzly.
So not sure what my old 375 does better.

 

[Strider]

As a part time guide I can attest to me and my fellow guides knowing about as little as possible about terminal ballistics. It isn't taught. Becoming a guide is surprisingly easy. The only thing the outfitters generally teach you about is country, how critters work said country, and how to get people in and out of it.

 

[TaperPin]

That’s funny - discounting other people’s experience as if the only people in the history of the world that know anything about shooting or shooting animals are you and your friends. Lol

 

[MtnW]

There is nothing about wildlife officers that requires education, and/or teaches anything about terminal ballistics and shooting knowledge or skill beyond the extreme rote basics. Guides do not go through training or education on ballistics, nor are they generally shooters themselves, and rarely know much of anything technical about guns. Lots- maybe most; are ranch hands, cowboys, fisherman, etc that are part time guides. Guides are paid to babysit hunters, find animals, help the hunter get on the animal, then take care of the animal and pack it out.


High level IPSC/USPSA shooters generally won’t know anything about animals, but they do know shooting at a level that is inconceivable to guides/police/hunters.


Learn to find animals from guides, learn to shoot handguns from high level USPSA competitors.

Really?
Experienced bear guides are not knowledgeable about bear rifles and ballistics ?
Career Wildlife Biologists, Wildlife Managers, Wardens who grew up with guns and hunting their whole lives,and around wildlife, in WY, ID,MT, are not knowledgeable about guns and ballistics?
My experiences with these individuals sure varies with your comments.
MtnW

 

[Formidilosus]

Really?
Experienced bear guides are not knowledgeable about bear rifles and ballistics ?
Career Wildlife Biologists, Wildlife Managers, Wardens who grew up with guns and hunting their whole lives,and around wildlife, in WY, ID,MT, are not knowledgeable about guns and ballistics?
My experiences with these individuals sure varies with your comments.
MtnW

Ok.

 

[MtnW]

There is nothing about wildlife officers that requires education, and/or teaches anything about terminal ballistics and shooting knowledge or skill beyond the extreme rote basics. Guides do not go through training or education on ballistics, nor are they generally shooters themselves, and rarely know much of anything technical about guns. Lots- maybe most; are ranch hands, cowboys, fisherman, etc that are part time guides. Guides are paid to babysit hunters, find animals, help the hunter get on the animal, then take care of the animal and pack it out.


High level IPSC/USPSA shooters generally won’t know anything about animals, but they do know shooting at a level that is inconceivable to guides/police/hunters.


Learn to find animals from guides, learn to shoot handguns from high level USPSA competitors.

What is your experience level to be such a expert? How many grizzly, brown bears , mountain sheep, moose, elk , caribou, Cape buffalo, leopards have you killed, hunting on your own or with a guide? How many career brown bear and grizzly guides have you hunted with to make the above statements? How many guided hunts have you been on, many of the above game animals listed require a guide unless you are a resident. How many career Rocky Mtn states biologists, game managers, wardens call you a friend and that you have hunted with?