What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[V35B]

Its an age old deal of understanding or not understanding. Reminds me of when I was a kid in my single digits in the late 70’s. All the old men (all were WW2 Vets) that came to hunt with us at my granddads place had some interesting card table discussions I have not forgotten, they were the same year after year. The topic of which came up first was the 218 Bee that I used to kill deer. All the old men would make the comment to my grandad- “its your land, you can do what you want, but that kid needs a gun with more knockdown power”. All those guys used 270’s or 300 Savages. It was finally pointed out that the little kid who shot two bricks of 22lr every week at turtles, rocks and vermin had not wounded a deer, all were clean kills. I remember tracking deer for those old men that we had about a 70 percent recovery rate on that were shot with all that “knockdown power”. Looking back they had a few problems that caused their poor performance on deer. Bad vision coupled with Weaver 2.5x scopes, not much practice during the off season, whiskey, poor range estimates, and remembering where the deer was when they shot. Those guys always used that term knockdown power to give credit or discredit a particular chambering. The year I showed up and was carrying a Savage 99 in 250 Savage, the group again debated the choice, this time they believed it was a stupid move as the 218 bee had been working fine lol.

 

[CC55]

Over the past six years, I have watched Jim Carr's daughters use my 6CM to lay waste to elk from 400 yards to 700 yards.

The clip of the cow getting tipped over in about 5 sec from 108 ELDM caught my attention a few years ago. Got my wheels turning about the "kid rifle" calibers. It just took a few thousands more animals in the 223/6mm/6.5mm threads to convince me to try it ha

 

[KHNC]

The evidence as I see it.

Less powder, less brass and less lead per round.
Guys here are singlehandedly responsible for elimination of ammo shortages.

Thats the fkn truth. I found ONE company with TMK's in stock. And their stupid ass Credit Card Verification system wont send me a dang text to confirm the purchase. SO , i guess they will miss a sale, to me anyway.

 

[Lawnboi]

Thats the fkn truth. I found ONE company with TMK's in stock. And their stupid ass Credit Card Verification system wont send me a dang text to confirm the purchase. SO , i guess they will miss a sale, to me anyway.

Sierra 22cal 77gr TMK

Product Information Caliber: 22cal Bullet Diameter: 0.224” Bullet Weight: 77 Grains OAL: 1.072" Bullet Style: Tipped MatchKing Boat Tail G1 BC: 0.420 Part Number: 7177 or 7177C Quantity: 100ct or 500ct

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No more excuses!

 

[SouthPaw]

Thats the fkn truth. I found ONE company with TMK's in stock. And their stupid ass Credit Card Verification system wont send me a dang text to confirm the purchase. SO , i guess they will miss a sale, to me anyway.

Sierra Tipped MatchKing Bullets .224 Diameter (22 Caliber) 77 Grain Polymer Tipped

The Sierra .224 / 22 77 Grain Tipped MatchKing bullet is specially designed for improved ballistic efficiency and accuracy for experienced shooters.

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[thinhorn_AK]

275 Rigby introduced in 1907
300 H&H introduced in 1925
375 Flanged introduced in 1899
404 introduced in 1905
425 Westley Richards introduced in 1909

7x57 Mauser introduced in 1892
6.5x55 Swedish introduced in 1886
30-30 introduced in 1895

Old with history is not always big. The history of the last and oldest three easily rivals that of the others. The last three have also been killing big game animals for over 127 years and doing it well, so smaller is not modern and only due to better bullets (as many others have asserted in this thread).

I agree and I find it interesting. I collect and read old hunting books, mostly specifically about Alaska and its interesting how many of these books discuss using smaller cartridges to shoot every type of animal in the state.

One that comes to mind is that in “hunting the Rocky Mountain goat” by Duncan ghilcrist, he mentions repeatedly that he’s not a fan of using his 300wm for goats even though at the time (mid-late 1960s when the book was written) that was the thing. He consistently says that he believed the hen best goat rifle he had was a 257 Roberts with a fixed 4x scope. He felt that gun let him shoot more comfortably with less recoil and more accuracy. Additionally he liked it because the reduced recoil prevented him from scoping himself on steep shots.

 

[letrbuck]

Thats the fkn truth. I found ONE company with TMK's in stock. And their stupid ass Credit Card Verification system wont send me a dang text to confirm the purchase. SO , i guess they will miss a sale, to me anyway.

Sierra Tipped MatchKing (TMK) Bullets 22 Cal (224 Diameter) 77 Grain

MatchKing rifle bullets are super-accurate bullets with very thin jackets and are held to exacting tolerances in diameter and weight. Their accuracy has...

www.midwayusa.com

Natchez

www.natchezss.com

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SIERRA 22 (.224) 77gr BULLET TIPPED MK 500/bx - Graf & Sons

Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. Another benefit is reliable...

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[PathFinder]

For me, it was personal experience that paralleled the information that became available here. I spent several years hunting with a 6.5 Creedmoor and 140 ELD M. That gun killed elk, deer, and bear from 200-670 yards and I got accustomed to how it performed. Four years ago I switched to a 300 WSM shooting 208 ELD-M. The expectation for that rifle was wound channels that dwarfed the 6.5 Creedmoor...but it wasn't the case. Most of the time it wouldn't have been possible to distinguish the two. 6 UM came around about the time I decided to go back to a lighter recoiling cartridge. Without a doubt I've given up zero terminal performance to the 300 WSM. All while gaining vastly superior external ballistics, shootability, field accuracy, and follow up shots.

 

[Long Cut]

Cost
Recoil
Performance
Quicker Follow-Up Shots
More Enjoyable to Practice (Cost & Recoil)

 

[KHNC]

Sierra Tipped MatchKing (TMK) Bullets 22 Cal (224 Diameter) 77 Grain

MatchKing rifle bullets are super-accurate bullets with very thin jackets and are held to exacting tolerances in diameter and weight. Their accuracy has...

www.midwayusa.com

Natchez

www.natchezss.com

Shop Rifle & Shotgun Reloading Supplies | Dies | Bullets | Hulls | Wads | Powder - Precision Reloading

Shop online for shotshell and metallic reloading supplies, shooting supplies, metallic presses, rifle reloading components, shotshell reloading components, shooting accessories, rifle reloading brass and Bullets.

www.precisionreloading.com

SIERRA 22 (.224) 77gr BULLET TIPPED MK 500/bx - Graf & Sons

Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. Another benefit is reliable...

www.grafs.com

Thanks, i was looking for ammo , not just bullets. sorry.

 

[KHNC]

Sierra 22cal 77gr TMK

Product Information Caliber: 22cal Bullet Diameter: 0.224” Bullet Weight: 77 Grains OAL: 1.072" Bullet Style: Tipped MatchKing Boat Tail G1 BC: 0.420 Part Number: 7177 or 7177C Quantity: 100ct or 500ct

www.bluecollarreloading.com

No more excuses!

I dont reload. If anyone has ammo link , ill take it tho!

 

[TaperPin]

If you were actually being serious, may I suggest a 221 fireball, it will probably feed from magazines better, and I think that it would be a good and practical alternative
You could build a lovely little rifle on a CZ action

I really like the 221 Fireball - that would be easier to get to function, but it’s quite a bit larger. I will probably chamber the hornet in a model 700, and when the newness wears off, recut the chamber to 223. Modifying the bolt for a rimmed case is the biggest hurdle, but I picked up a spare bolt to mess with and won an auction for a barrel. Unfortunately the barrel turned out to have too slow of a twist and it will just be used for lighter varmint bullets, so I’m still on the lookout for another with 1:8 twist.

A guy who shoots handgun silhouettes said the hornet was popular at one time shooting heavy bullets, but has been replaced with the 22 TCM - it’s the same powder capacity as the Hornet, but on a shortened 223/221 case.

 

[Lawnboi]

I dont reload. If anyone has ammo link , ill take it tho!

Black Hills 5.56 77 Gr TMK Ammunition

Black Hills TMK 5.56 77 Gr. Sierra Ammo 77 Gr. TMK Velocity: 2750 FPS 50ct box The products offered for sale on this page can expose you to chemicals, including Lead, which are known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm...

www.creedmoorsports.com

Merry christmas

 

[TaperPin]

I agree and I find it interesting. I collect and read old hunting books, mostly specifically about Alaska and its interesting how many of these books discuss using smaller cartridges to shoot every type of animal in the state.

One that comes to mind is that in “hunting the Rocky Mountain goat” by Duncan ghilcrist, he mentions repeatedly that he’s not a fan of using his 300wm for goats even though at the time (mid-late 1960s when the book was written) that was the thing. He consistently says that he believed the hen best goat rifle he had was a 257 Roberts with a fixed 4x scope. He felt that gun let him shoot more comfortably with less recoil and more accuracy. Additionally he liked it because the reduced recoil prevented him from scoping himself on steep shots.

I had that book at one time - really liked his practical, down to earth ideas.

The comment on scoping himself probably is more important now than ever - I see short eye relief scopes, shooting positions that force the scope rearward like squaring up prone, and high mounted scopes and questionable stocks that all contribute to proper eye relief being secondary. I don’t know if many shooters realize how much that can hurt?! Lol

 

[TaperPin]

Then you didn't understand (or just didn't read/listen). It was clearly explained why it wasn't a practical solution for what you were suggesting.

Not to be a dick, but if you can't articulate the argument against your position beyond "lolz, they got big mad", you probably don't really understand either side of the argument very well.

At the time it seemed quite clear that only a 223 was appropriate, not a 222, or 221, or hornet, or bee, or anything else. The 223 had some magical significance that I obviously didn’t understand. When I suggested the bullet doesn’t know what caliber it was fired from, and that any caliber can be fitted with a 1:8 twist, I was called stupid, because obviously I must be. If the idea was 223 velocities at 700 yards kill just fine, then reduced loads and velocities for guys only shooting 200 or 300 yards seemed like something everyone would jump at, but it turns out they are fine with overkilll. Lol

 

[doc holiday13]

Of course, with war apes, no one cares about blood trails, so long as they stop shooting back.

A friend of mine once said "bullets do crazy things even when you shoot someone several times. One time I shot a guy at 200m using 1 shot. He fell over and never got up. 2 weeks later i breached a door and plugged a guy 3x. That guy got up and ran down the hall. We threw a grenade instead of chase him"

 

[roosiebull]

I haven’t been around here to know when/if there was a conversion. I do find it interesting how adamant some are that everyone has to use what they do. If they aren’t using small calibers, they need to read a few threads and obviously they will change.

Some of the comments are interesting, like better hit rates, for example. I don’t exceed my skills, and I’ve only been hunting for big game several decades. I’ve never missed a big game animal on my first shot with a rifle. I grew up head shooting squirrels. A big game animal is huge by comparison. Yet, some here think I should change to a small caliber.

If you are missing or want to hunt with your target rifle so that you’ll stop missing, that’s fine with me. However, I don’t need to join the 12 step program to move away from 30 cal magnums … not yet, any way.

However, maybe the first step is admitting I have a problem.

I have literally seen zero people adamant about other people shooting what they shoot… not even one

Just sharing personal real world experiences that have enough data points to show consistent results. I for one appreciate it, because if I can get the same terminal performance with less recoil, I want to, it’s more fun to me pulling the trigger with no consequence, and I can teach my little 14yr old daughter good shooting habits with the same rifle she can hunt big game with

I will be building her a suppressed 6 creed that will be “her” rifle and know it’s up to the task of anything she’ll do with the proper projectile

 

[TaperPin]

As others have mentioned this is a very old discussion. Absolutely nothing new or revolutionary here. In fact, those who embrace the soft/match bullets are bigger fudds than the tough bullet guys! The first jacketed hunting bullets where all thin jacketed soft points that behaved precisely like the thin jacketed match bullets. They were not as precise or aerodynamic but they performed the same terminally. This is because they were a lead core wrapped in a thin copper or gilding jacket with no means to control expansion or retain weight. Worked perfect for low velocity and dynamite most of the time at high impact velocity lung shots. However sometimes didnt penetrate enough and hunters complained. Bullet makers listened to hunters

Bullets like your grandpa’s Remington corelokt or Win Silvertip came along which thickened / tapered jackets to limit expansion. Cores could still slip, but in general, you had less failures due to insufficient penetration. I will interject here that Jack O’Connor often pointed out that these new fangled “controlled expanding” bullets did not kill deer as fast as the old soft points (sound familiar?) on lung shots but were advisable for shoulder shots, bigger game or “brush hunting”. However, failures were made worse by smaller calibers at higher velocites (6mms, weatherbys, win/rem mags)

Then came partitions, bonding, and eventually monos to increase weight retention. Now lack of penetration were mostly a thing of the past even with light bullets on bigger game. Along with MSR, rise the popularity of using smaller calibers on bigger game….22s on deer, 6/6.5 on elk, etc….

So there is bullet history lesson to get me to my point…. Now we are combining small calibers and bullets with no means to control expansion or retain weight. There are history lessons here. This is not new at all. There is nothing cutting edge in bullet performance with soft bullets. What IS new is we are now focusing on longer ranges where impact velocity is lower and I believe in general guys on places like RS are better educated and equipped. Shot placement and lower impact velocity can forgive some sins in bullet construction. I think that is at least part of reason this trend is gaining here. I will probably get flamed by folks who think I am shading their choice but I am not. I don’t think any bullet construction is perfect for all scenarios and load for my hunting circumstances

So is this trend good for masses. I don’t think so. People wonder why manufacturers don’t recommend their match bullets for hunting. It is because of the history of hunting bullet design not some fuddery or lack of understanding. Despite the long range trend, for every guy that shoots a deer or elk broadside at 300+ yards there is probably 500 that shoot one quartering at under 100 yards even with “long range ammo”. Bullet makers know this and they want to make sure all of their hunting bullets handle both shots well as often as possible. This is why somebody like Hornady will say their match bullets are not for hunting. There is NO design feature in a match bullet to limit expansion or retain weight to increase odds of penetration on non-perfect shots. Like they say it may or may not work. They don’t design match bullets for that and don’t care and certainly don’t want to hear people complain if they fail in that scenario.

Lou

Well said - the history of shooting is interesting. I was watching a documentary about the parents of the boomers after WW2 - they were used to shooting long range, had money in their pockets, especially after getting settled in and working for a few years, and it spawned a whole list of new products.

These ads out of the early 50’s show products that would sell today if you just put target knobs on them - I’m shooting a Leupold 8x. I’ll bet nobody thought twice about using Kentucky windage for deer way out there. Lol

 

[Formidilosus]

At the time it seemed quite clear that only a 223 was appropriate, not a 222, or 221, or hornet, or bee, or anything else. The 223 had some magical significance that I obviously didn’t understand. When I suggested the bullet doesn’t know what caliber it was fired from, and that any caliber can be fitted with a 1:8 twist, I was called stupid, because obviously I must be. If the idea was 223 velocities at 700 yards kill just fine, then reduced loads and velocities for guys only shooting 200 or 300 yards seemed like something everyone would jump at, but it turns out they are fine with overkilll. Lol

Can you please link or quote where someone stated anything like that? That is literally the point that is being shown- “cartridge” does not affect what the bullet does. Bullet and impact velocity is what creates wounds and determines their size and shape.

 

[KHNC]

Black Hills 5.56 77 Gr TMK Ammunition

Black Hills TMK 5.56 77 Gr. Sierra Ammo 77 Gr. TMK Velocity: 2750 FPS 50ct box The products offered for sale on this page can expose you to chemicals, including Lead, which are known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm...

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Merry christmas

Thanks, I ordered a 50 box. Shipping costs suck from them. That is some pricey ammo compared to being able to buy SMK for considerably less in many places. But hell, soon I will have some Rokslide approved primo T-Rex killing ammo!