Wendler BBB 5/3/1 workout progression

[CjMelendrez]

I am new to the Wendler Boring But Big 5/3/1 program. My starting numbers are
deadlift: 190
bench: 120
squat: 155
press: 80

I am half way through my second 4 week program and based on research, it was recommended to increase max numbers for upper body by 5lbs and lowers body by 10lbs. Is that consistent to what you have seen in the past?

And I imagine that this progression is not as liner as it seems, so my next question is what are your experiences with hitting a plateau? And how do you overcome that stall?

This is the first program that is easy to digest and I can go into the gym without too much to think about, so that's helped me focus and get work done which is nice.

Any advice is welcome!

 

[Coach Chris]

I have been using the principles of Wendler's 5 3 1 for training clients and athletes for over a decade.

Starting light with training loads based off of the "Training Max" instead of a "max max" is part of what makes Wendler's 5 3 1 productive in the long term.

In most cases the 10# increase (squat/deadlift) and 5# increase (bench/oh press) have continued to provide enough stimulus for years of progress.
For strong females and endurance athletes I have found 5# for squat/deadlift and 2.5# for bench/oh press are consistently more fruitful in the long run.

How I handle stalls depends on how intense the stall is and what's going on outside the gym.
If you miss a 95% lift I would repeat the training cycle.
If you miss 3 reps at 85% I would recalibrate the training max.

Hope this helps
Good Journey

 

[alaska80]

@CjMelendrez - 5/3/1 is an excellent program that you really could run the rest of your life. It is not the only program that will work, there are many others, but I love its versatility.
I have run 5/3/1 for a number of years and have had great success with it as it applies to walk in hunting in the Alaska backcountry. Here is some input on your questions.
Adding 10lbs to lower body and 5lbs to upper body is the standard progression. The idea is to progress until on your 1+ week if you do not get between 3-5 reps on your top set, then it is time to drop back a few cycles and work your way back up. Bear in mind this is not the only progression protocol, there are many out there, but for a new lifter it is pretty foolproof.
In practice this is what a hypothetical progression would look like for deadlift (I am assuming the numbers you gave are your training maxes) :
Cycle 1: 190 3-5 reps top set on 1+ week
Cycle 2: 200 3-5 reps top set on 1+ week
Cycle 3: 210 3 reps top set on 1+ week
Cycle 4: 220 2 reps top set on 1+ week
Since you only got 2 reps on the last cycle it would be good to drop back 2 cycles and work back up. So your next cycle would start at 200 for deadlift then work your way back up. Using this slow and steady method will allow you to gain for years injury free. Essentially it is 3-4steps forward and then 2-3 steps back and start over.
Again there are MANY more ways to progress, but this is probably one of the easiest methods. Down the road you can add stuff like Joker sets etc. for progression, but best to keep it simple for a year or two.

 

[CjMelendrez]

@Coach Chris and @alaska80 thank you both very much!

These are my current "training maxes" I've always stayed active (mountain biking, sport climbing outside, backpacking, and wilderness trail work) but I've never tracked a 1 rep max so the first 2 weeks i guessed a starting weight for each lift. If I was close to over 10 reps at the end of each day for each lift I upped the weight. by week 2 it felt right. So i started over at week 1 with the week 2 weight. I am not 1 cycle and 2 weeks into it. So far so good! and i will definitely take note of what to do during a "stall" the goal is not to get huge and compete, just be stronger and healthier and move my ass better in the mountains.

Thanks again!

 

[Ashy Larry]

I’m in the deload week of my 3rd cycle. Excited to increase weight for the 4th time. I lifted consistently for a year before starting 5/3/1 and so far I really like it, definitely a sustainable program. I’m doing weight for reps that I wouldn’t have tried once a year ago.

 

[mtwarden]

I’ve had to “recalibrate” numerous times, mostly due to a longer break from lifting, hunting season for example.

The few times I’ve recalibrated due to not hitting the prescribed reps, I’ve first repeated the four week cycle.

If I still don’t hit them, I’ll drop back a couple of cycles. Also when I’m getting close to plateauing, I’ll sometimes go with less than a 5 and 10 lb jump/cycle.

Lots of ways to skin that cat.

 

[CjMelendrez]

I’ve had to “recalibrate” numerous times, mostly due to a longer break from lifting, hunting season for example.

The few times I’ve recalibrated due to not hitting the prescribed reps, I’ve first repeated the four week cycle.

If I still don’t hit them, I’ll drop back a couple of cycles. Also when I’m getting close to plateauing, I’ll sometimes go with less than a 5 and 10 lb jump/cycle.

Lots of ways to skin that cat.

Thanks for the input! Definitely gives me confidence to keep pushing

 

[SkeeterMcgiblet]

Great choice of program, I come from a powerlifting / strongman background and I love seeing 531 and Wendler-ian philosophy on Rokslide. I'd highly recommend buying and reading the actual 531 book & 531 Forever, they can be difficult to follow and understand but its very much worth mining through and can help you understand training as a whole ecosystem.

One very important thing I have to remind myself when I run 531 or similar "slow" progressions is that the progress I'm making isn't always tied directly to weight on the bar session to session and that its fine for the work to almost feel "easy". If you move the same weight faster, you're getting stronger, if you do the same amount of work (weight, sets & reps) in a shorter amount of time you're getting better, or if you do the same work and its easier / less fatiguing its because you're stronger, etc.

531 is very much a "stay the course / punch the clock" kind of program where quality work over time stacks into great progress. Not every session needs to be a slobberknocker because that's not sustainable, or it will be detrimental to other aspects or your training or life in general.

Think of progress in 8 months, not 8 weeks
You can't get strong in a day, but you can certainly break yourself in a day

 

[Poser]

Wendler doesn't prescribe this in the progression that I am aware of, but for the bench press and press, at some point in the progression (based on your numbers, this should be far out from doing this), dropping to 2.5 lbs increases works extremely well. Your gym probably does not have 1.75 lbs plates which means you'll need to buy your own micro plates.

For maintaining progression, especially when it comes to microloading, the equipment available to you can vary wildly depending on your gym. If you're lucky, your gym has high end bars and calibrated plates, however, many gyms have very cheap bars, cheap plates and they are mixes of various brands. If you start throwing plates and bars on a scale, you may be shocked at the variance. I've seen a discrepancies of as much as 7 lbs over/under on 45 lbs plates and similar variances with cheap bars. I've also seen 10 lbs plates with 2-3 lbs variances. You start stacking multiple 45s, 10s and 25s on a barbell and they all have variances, you can end up being 20-30+ lbs over/under your desired load.

When you start talking about increasing your bench press from 250 lbs to 252.5 lbs, you need this load increase to be 100% accurate. Since my gym has cheap bars and plates, I bought my own bar, weighed all of the plates and wrote the actual weights on them with a sharpie. I then just go out of my way to use the exact same sets of plates each session to maintain consistency.

 

[ScottP76]

Did 5/3/1 and Beyond 5/3/1 for a few years training Strongman. As I progressed there were a couple of cycles I didn’t add the 5 or 10lbs sometimes it was one or the other. Because I couldn’t complete the phase 100%. You think it’s not much weight what’s the big deal but sometimes it was challenging. When I would stall or plateau I would add Joker Sets or some of the other add on sets Wendler recommended. But if you read it all he makes a lot of sense. There was a part in the book I would always reread and helped me better especially after being stapled a few times on big lifts

 

[Uncle Goonie]

5 for squats and deadlifts and 2.5 for presses works better for me and some of the guys I've trained with, less failures as you start to reach higher weights. Don't be in a big hurry and give it some time and it's very effective.

 

[CjMelendrez]

Great choice of program, I come from a powerlifting / strongman background and I love seeing 531 and Wendler-ian philosophy on Rokslide. I'd highly recommend buying and reading the actual 531 book & 531 Forever, they can be difficult to follow and understand but its very much worth mining through and can help you understand training as a whole ecosystem.

One very important thing I have to remind myself when I run 531 or similar "slow" progressions is that the progress I'm making isn't always tied directly to weight on the bar session to session and that its fine for the work to almost feel "easy". If you move the same weight faster, you're getting stronger, if you do the same amount of work (weight, sets & reps) in a shorter amount of time you're getting better, or if you do the same work and its easier / less fatiguing its because you're stronger, etc.

531 is very much a "stay the course / punch the clock" kind of program where quality work over time stacks into great progress. Not every session needs to be a slobberknocker because that's not sustainable, or it will be detrimental to other aspects or your training or life in general.

Think of progress in 8 months, not 8 weeks
You can't get strong in a day, but you can certainly break yourself in a day

This make a lot of sense! the de-load week 4 of the cycle felt like a waste of time at first, but I understand it's required for growth and preventing injury. punch the clock hits home for sure.

 

[SkeeterMcgiblet]

This make a lot of sense! the de-load week 4 of the cycle felt like a waste of time at first, but I understand it's required for growth and preventing injury. punch the clock hits home for sure.

Exactly, the deload may feel like a waste now but its very necessary to let you're body recover even if you feel fine. Getting stronger aka "adaptation" occurs along a timeline called the "SRA Curve" (Stimulus - Adaptation - Recovery), see chart below with someones butt-cheek as a reference illustration.

This equates to "Stress (stimulate) the body with exercise, let the body rest (recover) from the exercise, then the body grows stronger (adapts) to handle better handle stress it was exposed to". The recovery part takes the longest and is also the most important. This works both on the weekly (micro-cycle) and the monthly (macro-cycle) of training.

Don't take this the wrong way and wait 2 weeks in between workouts to "fully recover" from your last day of squats, just be smart and not bomb yourself out if you're already pretty broken down. This also shows that not everyday will feel good or strong, but that doesn't really mean you aren't progressing. Fatigue will mask your fitness / strength levels until you recover and can express the adaptation you've incurred.

I think Wendler said something to the affect of "Deload before you need to, or else an injury will force you to deload"


Sorry for the word vomit, I geek out over this stuff and honestly I needed to remind myself of this principle as well

 

[CjMelendrez]

I think Wendler said something to the affect of "Deload before you need to, or else an injury will force you to deload"

Sorry for the word vomit, I geek out over this stuff and honestly I needed to remind myself of this principle as well

No apologies necessary! All good info. I'm ordering the 531 second edition book later today.

 

[Hoodie]

Are those numbers your training maxes or your BBB 5x10 numbers?

 

[CjMelendrez]

training maxes. and they are actually:

Press	1 × 80
Bench Press	1 × 125
Squat	1 × 160
Deadlift	1 × 195

I'm on my second cycle and never tracked maxes for these lifts before so I started light, readjusted and redid week 1 and 2 of cycle 1. now im halfway into cycle #2

 

[SkeeterMcgiblet]

No apologies necessary! All good info. I'm ordering the 531 second edition book later today.

I'd recommend splurging and getting the Forever book as well. There's a lot of refinements to the programming and philosophy that are in Forever that really help you build over time. It also has the Krypteia program which is the basis of the training I run, which is a play on BBB.

If you ever have questions or need help feel free to DM me. I'm not a personal trainer but I like to think I know a thing or two

 

[CjMelendrez]

much appreciated!

 

[Hoodie]

With those training maxes I would strongly recommend switching to a linear progression style program for just a little while, then going back to 5/3/1 once that stalls.

5/3/1 is a great program, but the progression is really slow for newer lifters who have the potential to make really rapid gains for the first 3-4 months or so. Until you reach a certain point, it's very easy to add weight to your lifts every single workout. Programs like Starting Strength or 5x5 can take the average male from a 135 back squat to 275-315 or more pretty reliably in 12-16 weeks (genetics, determination, willingness to gain bodyweight, etc. will play a role).

Once you can no longer add 5lbs to the bar each workout, switching to more a more complex loading scheme like 5/3/1 is a great way to keep making progress, albeit a little slower.

 

[CjMelendrez]

With those training maxes I would strongly recommend switching to a linear progression style program for just a little while, then going back to 5/3/1 once that stalls.

5/3/1 is a great program, but the progression is really slow for newer lifters who have the potential to make really rapid gains for the first 3-4 months or so. Until you reach a certain point, it's very easy to add weight to your lifts every single workout. Programs like Starting Strength or 5x5 can take the average male from a 135 back squat to 275-315 or more pretty reliably in 12-16 weeks (genetics, determination, willingness to gain bodyweight, etc. will play a role).

Once you can no longer add 5lbs to the bar each workout, switching to more a more complex loading scheme like 5/3/1 is a great way to keep making progress, albeit a little slower.

Interesting... I hadn't thought about that. I'll do research